Nuremberg Trial Proceedings Volume 14

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Monday, 27 May 1946

Morning Session

[The Defendant Von Schirach resumed the stand.]

MR. DODD: Mr. President, I would like to make certain that I did offer the following documents in evidence: 3914-PS, which becomes USA-863; 3943-PS, USA-864; and 3877-PS, USA-865.

MR. DODD: Mr. Witness, at the close of the session on Friday we had just handed to you a copy of the teletype message to Martin Bormann. I had read it to you over this transmission system. I wish to ask you now if you sent that message to Bormann.

VON SCHIRACH: Yes, I dispatched that teletype message, and I should like to give an explanation in this connection. First...

MR. DODD: May I interrupt you just for a minute and ask that for the little while that we will be talking today, that you wait just a minute after your answer. I think it would help a little bit with the interpreting. I do not think we will have any trouble this morning. I will try to do the same thing, and perhaps we will work a little better together.

VON SCHIRACH: First of all, then, I want to explain why I addressed Bormann with `'Du," in the friendly form. Bormann and I come from the same town; I knew him from Weimar, but only slightly. And when in 1928 or '29 he came to Munich, he paid me a visit, and because he was the elder of us he suggested to me that we should call one another "Du." We maintained that form until 1943, when on his own initiative he dropped it and addressed me in his letters only with "Sie."

Now, the text of this teletype message: We were in the third year of the war; the Czech population both in the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia and in Henna had remained perfectly quiet; in the Protectorate conditions were almost like those in peacetime. I had a very large Czech population in Vienna, and as a result of the attempt on Heydrich's life I feared that in the Protectorate there might be unrest which would no doubt have serious repercussions in Vienna. This was the time when German troops were advancing on the peninsula of Kerch; it was a time when we could


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not afford to have anything happen behind our front. And simultaneously with the news of the murder of the Protector I received official notification that the attempt, as is mentioned in this document, had been carried out by British agents and with British weapons.

During the same month we heard, and it was also mentioned in the Wehrmacht communiqués, that British bombers had bombed residential areas in Hamburg and Paris and had attacked German cultural sites at Kiel. And so I suggested a reprisal measure to establish before the world British guilt in this attempt and to prevent serious unrest in Czechoslovakia. That is all I have to say. This teletype message is genuine.

May I at this point also comment on a difficulty of translation which occurred during the last cross-examination on Friday? The German word "Rester" was at that time translated into the English "savior." It is an expression which I used in my book when I described the Fuehrer as a "Rester," and the difficulty lies in the translation of that word into English: it can only be translated into English as 'savior.'' But retranslated into German, "savior" means "Hedland." In order to make quite clear what the German "Rester" is meant to express in English, I should have to use an explanatory phrase. If I say that the exact translation is "rescuer," then the real meaning of the word "Rester" is clearly set forth; and there is nothing blasphemous in the comparison or the description of the head of the State as a "rescuer." But if I had written in German that the head of the State was a "Hedland," then, of course, that would be blasphemy.

THE PRESIDENT: This sort of explanation should be kept for re-examination. It is not a matter which ought to interrupt the cross-examination.

MR. DODD: Now, I have only one or two questions to ask you in addition about this message.

Were you thinking of some particular cultural city in Britain, like Cambridge, Oxford, Stratford, Canterbury?

VON SCHIRACH: No, I had no definite plan in mind. I thought that one ought to choose an objective corresponding to the sites hit by British bombers in Germany.

MR. DODD: As long as it was a cultural city. Were you thinking of what happened in Germany or of what happened to Heydrich?

VON SCHIRACH: I was thinking of the cultural buildings in Germany which had been attacked, and I wanted to suggest this as an opportunity to make clear unmistakably that the murder of Heydrich had not been committed by the Czech population but by


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the Czech emigrants in London with British support. This retaliation in the third year of the war was to be a reply both to the attempt against Heydrich and to the attacks on German cultural monuments.

MR. DODD: You did not make any reference in this telegram to any so-called or alleged bombings of cultural objects in Germany, did you?

VON SCHIRACH: The Wehrmacht communiqués had already announced them, and they were generally known.

MR. DODD: That is not what I asked you. I asked if it is not a fact that in this teletype you made no reference at all to the alleged bombing of cultural objects in Germany, nor did you relate your suggestion for the bombing of a cultural town in England to any alleged cultural bombing in Germany, but rather, you made it perfectly clear that you wanted to strike at a cultural town in England because of what had happened to Heydrich. That is so, is it not?

VON SCHIRACH: It was not at all necessary for me to point to the bombing of German cultural sites. It was a fact known to the entire German population from the daily attacks of British bombers.

MR. DODD: I suppose by this time you knew very well the general reputation of Heydrich, did you not?

VON SCHIRACH: No, that is not correct. I considered Heydrich in this particular case as the representative of the Reich in Bohemia and Moravia and not as the Chief of the Gestapo.

MR. DODD: Did you know his general reputation in Germany at least at that time?

VON SCHIRACH: I knew that he was the Chief of the Gestapo. I did not know that he had committed the atrocities which have meanwhile become known.

MR. DODD: You had no knowledge that he was considered "the terror of the Gestapo"?

VON SCHIRACH: That is an expression which enemy propaganda used against him.

MR. DODD: You mean you still think it is propaganda?


MR. DODD: Well, was it through enemy propaganda that you heard that he was called a terror before he was killed in 1942?

VON SCHIRACH: No, I do not want to say that . . .

MR. DODD: How did you know it?


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VON SCHIRACH: I merely want to state here that for me the Reich Protector Heydrich was during this third year of the war a person other than the Chief of the Gestapo. This was a political matter.

MR. DODD: You did not content yourself with this suggestion to bomb England, did you? Do you recall what else you suggested not long afterwards?

VON SCHIRACH: No, I do not know.

MR. DODD: Do you recall anything that you either suggested or did by way of further so-called retaliation for the assassination of Heydrich?

VON SCHIRACH: No. I have no recollection.

MR. DODD: You suggested evacuating all the Czechs out of Vienna, did you not?

VON SCHIRACH: This is a suggestion which did not originate with me personally, but which goes back to a remark about Henna which the Fuehrer himself had made in 1940 while I was reporting to him at his headquarters. I think I already mentioned during my own testimony that he said, "Vienna must become a German city and the Jews and Czechs must gradually be evacuated from Vienna." I already said that during my own testimony here.

MR. DODD: My question is: Is it not a fact that a few days after the assassination of Heydrich you suggested the evacuation of the Czechs from Vienna as a retaliatory measure for the assassination of Heydrich?

VON SCHIRACH: I have no recollection of it, but it is possible that in the excitement of this event, which disquieted me greatly, I said something like that.

MR. DODD: I suggest that you take a look at Document 3886-PS, which becomes USA-866, Mr. President.

Now, this document consists of excerpts from the record of a meeting of the Henna City Council on 6 June 1942, as you will see on Page 9 of the original. You were present, and according to these notes, you spoke as Reichsleiter Baldur van Schirach and, moving down towards the bottom of that page, you will find this statement:

"Finally, he"-meaning you-"disclosed that already in the latter part of summer or in the fall of this year all Jews would be removed from the city, and that the removal of the Czechs would then get under way, since this is the necessary and right answer to the crime committed against the Deputy Reich Protector of Bohemia and Moravia."

Do you remember saying that?


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VON SCHIRACH: I have no exact recollection, but I consider that these records here are genuine, and they probably represent the sense of what I said at the time. I was very much perturbed by Heydrich's death. I was afraid of serious trouble in Bohemia and Moravia, and I expressed my fears. The essential thing is that after calm consideration of this plan I dropped it, and did nothing more about it.

MR. DODD: Well, in any event, I think it is perfectly clear- and I ask you if you do not agree-that you made two suggestions at least: one for the bombing of a cultural English town and the other for the wholesale evacuation of the Czechs from Vienna, because of the assassination of this man Heydrich.

VON SCHIRACH: It is true that I put the idea of such an evacuation of the Czechs into words. It is equally true, and a historical fact, that I dropped the idea and that it was never carried out. It is correct that I suggested the bombing of a British cultural site as an answer to the attempt against Heydrich and to the innumerable bombardments of German cultural places in the third year of the war, at a time when vital interests of the German people were at stake.

MR. DODD: Incidentally, Hitler also suggested the wholesale evacuation of the Czechs from Czechoslovakia as a punishment for the murder of Heydrich, did he not?

VON SCHIRACH: That I do not know.

MR. DODD: Now I want to turn to something else and see if we can get through here rather soon this morning. You recall that on Friday we talked a little bit about your relationship with the SS and with Himmler, and I want to ask you this morning if it is not a fact, Mr. Witness, that you worked very closely with Himmler and his SS from almost the earliest days right down to almost the last days of your regime in Vienna. I wish you would answer that question.

VON SCHIRACH: I should very much like to answer that question in great detail.

MR. DODD: It does not require great detail in the first answer, but later, if you feel that you have some necessary explanation, I am sure you will be permitted to do so. Will you tell the Tribunal first of all, rather, if it is not a fact that you did closely co-operate with Himmler and his SS from the earliest days of your public office to the very late days of your public office?

VON SCHIRACH: Close collaboration in the sense that Himmler had considerable influence upon education did not exist.


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MR. DODD: Let us stop right there and inquire a lithe bit. Is it not a fact that Himmler assigned his SS personnel to your youth organization for the training purpose of your young people? You can answer that very simply. Did he or did he not?

VON SCHIRACH: For training purposes?

MR. DODD: Yes.

VON SCHIRACH: I am not aware of anything like that. The fact that there might have been liaison officers would not be unusual, because practically all ministries and organizations had liaison officers. What you have just suggested, however, I do not recall.

MR. DODD: I think we had better clear this up first, and I ask you that you look at Document 3931-PS, which is a new document which becomes USA-867, Mr. President.

Now, Mr. Witness, if you will look at this document, you will observe that it is a message which you sent to "Dear Party Member Bormann" in August of 1941. It is quite long, and there will not be any necessity, I am sure, for reading all of it, but I want to direct your attention to some parts of it that might help your memory with respect to the SS.

By way of preliminary question, the SA apparently had suggested that it take over some of the training of young people, had it not, some time in the summer of 1941?

VON SCHIRACH: I said in my testimony-I think on Thursday-that already in the spring of 1939, I believe, the SA had attempted to take over the promilitary training of the youth of the two older age classes, and such attempts were probably repeated in 1941.

MR. DODD: Yes, I knew you were complaining to Bormann about it when you wrote this message. You recall now, do you not, from just looking at the letter, that that is the whole substance of the letter-a complaint about the attempt of the SA to directly control the training of some young people in the Hitler Youth organization.

VON SCHIRACH: I cannot speak about this long teletype letter without having read through it.

MR. DODD: Well, let us see. If you will turn to the second page of the English text-you do not have any pages there; I think it is all one. It is all a teletype, but it will be not too far down on the first part of it. First of all, I want to have you see if you can find the statement that "the Hitler Youth has considered it necessary from the very beginning to make the Party itself the agency for the


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direction and administration of its military training." Do you find that passage?


MR. DODD: Well, you will find the paragraph numbered (1) on your teletype, small Arabic number one. You will find they start to be numbered (1), (2), (3), and so on. Do you find that, Mr. Witness?

VON SCHIRACH: I have Roman numeral I.

MR. DODD: All right. That is what I want to call your attention to. If we hit some place that we agree on, then we can move on. You found that Number (1) that says that "for more than one year an agreement in draft form has been submitted to the SA which requests that the SA cadre be furnished for the military training of the youth," and that the SA leadership did not comply with this request.

Now, will you move down further, let me see, in Number (3), and then following (3), probably down another whole length three or four paragraphs, you will find-it is in capital letters, by the way-what I want to call your attention to; I assume it is in capital letters in the German:

"I would be happy if the SA would put personnel at my

disposal for support for this purpose, similar to the way in

which the SS and the Police have been doing for a long time


In the English, Mr. President, that is at the bottom of Page 4 and the top of Page 5.

[Turning to the defendant.] Did you find that sentence?


MR. DODD: You say there that you would be happy if the SA would put personnel at your disposal for support of this purpose, similar to the way in which the SS and the Police have been doing for a long time already, and you are referring-if you will read back to the paragraph just ahead of that sentence-to the training of the young people. You talk about Hitler Schools and the training of Hitler Youth. Now, it is perfectly clear, is it not, that you did have assistance from the SS, according to your own words, from the SS and Police, for a long time before you sent this message?

VON SCHIRACH: During the war, yes; since the beginning of the war in 1939 we had promilitary training camps and I wanted youth instructors for these camps. Neither the Army nor the SA could supply sufficient instructors; the SS and the Police could place a few young officers at my disposal.

MR. DODD: So it was only from the beginning of the war that you had personnel from the SS and Police for the training of young people, was it?


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VON SCHIRACH: I do not think that there would have been need for SS instructors otherwise. As I have said, we selected youth leaders from among youth itself.

MR. DODD: I ask you again, do you want the Tribunal to understand that it was only from the beginning of the war that you had the assistance of SS and Police personnel assigned to your youth organization for the training of young people?

VON SCHIRACH: I cannot answer that question definitely for this reason: we had for example a training camp for skiing practice, and it was quite possible that one of the instructors was an SA man or an SS man only because by chance he happened to be one of the best sportsmen in that field. But I cannot think where such collaboration existed elsewhere.

MR. DODD: Are you able to say that you did not have SS personnel assigned for training purposes; and I am not talking about some isolated skimaster, I am talking about a regular program of assistance from the SS to you in your training of young people.

VON SCHIRACH: As far as promilitary training is concerned, it was only through this teletype message that I requested help for training purposes. Apart from that, I do not recollect any collaboration.

MR. DODD: Do you know the term "Heuaktion"?

VON SCHIRACH: Heuaktion? I do not remember it. I do not know what is meant by that.

MR. DODD: Well, you have been in the courtroom every day. Do you not remember that there was proof offered here by the Prosecution concerning the Defendant Rosenberg and an action termed Heuaktion?

VON SCHIRACH: No, I do not remember it at the moment; I do not know it.

MR. DODD: Do you not remember that there was some talk here in the courtroom about the seizing of young people in the East and forcing them to be brought to Germany, 40,000 or 50,000 youths at the ages of 10 to 14? You remember that, don't you, and that one of the purposes was to destroy the biological potentiality of these people? You do not know what I refer to?

VON SCHIRACH: Yes, that is an action which I now remember in connection with this Trial. The only thing I can say on this in an official capacity is what Axmann told me during the war-I cannot recall the exact year-namely, that he had placed a large number of young Russians in apprentice hostels and apprentice workshops at the Junkers works in Dessau, and that these youths


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were extremely well accommodated and looked after there. I had not been in any way concerned with this action before, but as I stated at the beginning of my testimony here, I assume responsibility for the actions of youth in this war; I adhere to that statement. I do not think however, that youth is responsible in this case, and I recall the Defendant Rosenberg's statements that he was complying with the wishes of the Army and an army group in this affair.

MR. DODD: Well, we have the document here. It is already in evidence as USA-171-the Tribunal is familiar with it-and I would like to call your attention to the fact that in this document, which says that Rosenberg agreed to the program of seizing or apprehending 40,000 to 50,000 youths at the ages of 10 to 14 and the transportation of them to the Reich, it also said that this program can be accomplished with the help of the officers of the Hitler Youth through the Youth Bureau of Rosenberg's Ministry; and it also said that a number of these young people were to be detailed to the SS and SS auxiliaries. Now, what I want to ask you particularly is what you know about that program and how the Hitler Youth co-operated in it?

VON SCHIRACH: I cannot add to what I have already said about this program.

MR. DODD: You were in charge of the war commitment of the Hitler Youth, were you not, the "Kriegseinsatz"?

VON SCHIRACH: The war commitment of German youth was under immediate direction of the Reich Youth Leader. From my own knowledge I can give only general but no detailed information.

MR. DODD: Mr. Witness, I ask you again, were you not appointed and did you not serve as the person responsible for the war commitment of youth in Germany? Now, I have got the document to show your appointment if you want to see it.

VON SCHIRACH: Yes; I do not want to deny it at all. In 1939 and 1940, as long as I was Reich Youth Leader, I myself directed that war commitment.

MR. DODD: I am talking about an appointment that was made even later than 1939 or 1940. You were appointed the person in charge of the war commitment of German youth by the Fuehrer at his headquarters in March of 1942, were you not?

VON SCHIRACH: Will you be good enough to show me the document. I consider it possible, but I have no exact recollection.

MR. DODD: All right. It is 3933-PS, which becomes USA-868. But first of all: You do not know you were appointed in charge of the war commitment for youth without being shown the document?


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VON SCHIRACH: No; only I cannot tell you the exact date from memory. I was under the impression that I had been responsible for the war commitment beginning in 1939.

MR. DODD: All right, that is all I wanted to establish, that you were in fact responsible for it and continued to be responsible for it right up to the end of the war. I understood you to say a minute ago that the Reich Youth Leader was the man responsible rather than yourself?

VON SCHIRACH: No. I said that I could give you only general but no special information, because the practical application of the war commitment was a matter for Axmann; I do not, however, want to minimize my own responsibility in any way.

MR. DODD: Very well. I think we are sufficiently clear about the fact that you were certainly named to the position no matter how you now wish to "water" your responsibility. What do you say is the date when you first became responsible for the war commitment of youth?

VON SCHIRACH: As far as I remember, I was responsible for it beginning 1939, at the outbreak of war, but I now see that this decree was not signed until 1942.

MR. DODD: All right; we will agree then that from that date, March 1942, you were responsible. Now, I want to ask you to look at another document.

VON SCHIRACH: One moment, may I explain something in this connection? I do not know whether Hitler signed this decree in March 1942; I do not know when it was signed. In this document Axmann tells me: the draft of the decree is now going to the Chief of the Reich Chancellery, who will request the official approval of the higher Reich authorities concerned, and then Bormann...

MR. DODD: You do not need to read it, really. What do you want to say now? Are you saying that maybe it was not signed, or maybe you were not appointed, or are you going to say that you were appointed? Will you please give us an answer?

VON SCHIRACH: Not at all. But I really cannot say that the date of the publication of this decree was March 1942. It may not have been published until May.

MR. DODD: I am not attaching any great importance to the date. I want you to look at 345-PS, which we offer as USA-869. This may help you on this Heuaktion program; that is, with respect to your memory.

Now, this is a telegram that the Defendant Rosenberg sent to Dr. Lammers at the Reich Chancellery for the Fuehrer's headquarters


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on 20 July 1944. You will observe that in the first paragraph there is stated:

"In accordance with an agreement between the Reich Marshal as Commander-in-Chief of the Air Force, the Reichsfuehrer SS, the Youth Fuehrer of the German Reich, and the Reich Minister for the Occupied Eastern Territories, the recruiting of young Russians, Ukrainians, White Ruthenians, Lithuanians, and Tartars, between 15 and 20 years of age, 'will take place on a volunteer basis for Kriegseinsatz in the Reich"'-"Kriegseinsatz" being a program that you were responsible for clearly at that time.

Now, moving down, I want to call your attention to Paragraph 3, and I want to remind you of the Heuaktion document that is already in evidence. This telegram says:

"On the basis of a suggestion by military offices, the seizing and turning over of youths between the ages of 10 to 14 to the Reich territories will take place (Heuaktion) in a part of the operational territory, since the youths in the operational territory present a not insignificant burden."

It goes on to say:

"The aim of the action is a further disposal of the youths by placing them in the Reich Youth Movement, and the training of apprentices for German economic in a form similar to that which has been effected in agreement with the Plenipotentiary General for the Allocation of Labor with White Russian Youths, which already shows results.')

I particularly call your attention to that last phrase, "which already shows results."

Then the last clause in the next sentence, which says, ". . . these youths are to be used later in the Occupied Eastern Territories as especially reliable construction forces."

You will observe that the last paragraph says that "the actions under Points 1 and 3"-which I have lust been reading-"are known to the Fuehrer." And there is something about SS help in regard to this action. You had set a time limit on that.

The next page of the document has the distribution, to the Reich Marshal, the Reichsfuehrer SS, the Reich Youth Fuehrer, and the Reich Minister of Interior, and down at the bottom, a Gauleiter bureau, among others.

What do you know about this seizing of young people between 10 and 14 and the turning over of them to your youth organization in Germany during these war years, and about how many thousands of them were so kidnaped, if you know?


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VON SCHIRACH: I have already said that I do not wish to minimize my responsibility in this connection. But it was not until later that I was informed of this matter. Not I, but somebody else was Youth Leader of the German Reich in that year; and he made the agreement with the Commander-in-Chief of the Air Force and the Reichsfuehrer SS. But my own measures were. . .

MR. DODD: Later you were the Youth Reichsleiter of Germany, were you not? And you were also the war commitment officer of Youth in Germany at this very time?

VON SCHIRACH: I was at Vienna, and the date was 20 July 1944. You will remember that the history-making events of that time were occupying all officials in Germany to a very great extent. Later I heard about this matter from Axmann, and I know that the accommodation, training, feeding, and the whole treatment of these Russian youths was actually excellent.

MR. DODD: You also know that even at this hour the Allied forces are trying to find thousands of these young people to return them to their proper place? Do you know that this morning's press carried an account of 10,000 people that are still unlocated?

VON SCHIRACH: I do not believe that those are these young people who were accommodated in apprentice hostels and who under exceptionally well-ordered conditions received very good professional training.

MR. DODD: You see, it is perfectly clear from this Document 345-PS that this program was in fact in operation. The letter from Rosenberg says so. He says it had "already shown results." And so your youth organization must have had something to do with it before this message was sent.

VON SCHIRACH: I have not at all denied that. Youth leaders were active within the framework of the Reich Ministry for the Occupied Eastern Territories. And on the basis of what I have heard here during the Trial, I can perfectly well understand that the generals in the East said that the young people must be taken out of the combat zone. The point was that these youngsters from 10 to 14 years of age had to be taken away from the front.

MR. DODD: With the help of the SS?

Now, I want to show you another document, 1137-PS, which will give you some idea, if you do not recall, of what was done with these young people, and how many of them are involved.

That will become USA-870.

THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, there is a paragraph at the bottom of Page 1 of that document which relates to another defendant.


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MR. DODD: Yes, Your Honor, I am sorry; I overlooked that. I will read it for the benefit of the record, if I may, at this time.

Mr. Witness, I direct your attention back, if I may, to this Document 345-PS, so that you will be aware of what I am reading. You will observe that in the last paragraph of Rosenberg's communication to Dr. Lammers we find this sentence:

"I have learned that Gauleiter Sauckel will be at the Fuehrer's

headquarters on 21 July 1944. I ask that this be taken up

with him there and then a report made to the Fuehrer."

Sauckel was participating in this kidnaping of 10- to 14-year-olds as well, was he? Do you know about that?

VON SCHIRACH: I have no knowledge of it. I cannot give any information on that subject.

MR. DODD: Now, this Document 1137-PS begins with a letter from a general, a message rather, an interoffice memorandum, dated 27 October 1944, and it closes with a report by the brigadier general of the Hitler Youth, a man named Nickel.

Do you know Nickel, by the way? N-i-c-k-e-l?

VON SCHIRACH: The name is known to me, and probably I know the man personally; but at the moment I do not recall more than just the name. At any rate, he was not a brigadier general; he was a Hauptbannfuehrer.

MR. DODD: Well, all right. Whatever he was, he was an official of the youth organization. That is all I am trying to establish. I may have his title wrong. We have it brigadier general.

But in any event, if you look over this document, you will see that he is reporting about the seizing of these youths in the Occupied Eastern Territory. This is October 1944. And he begins by saying that on 5 March he "received an order to open an office for the recruitment of youths from 15 to 20 years of age from the Occupied Eastern Territories for war employment in the Reich."

Then he goes on to cite figures, and he tells where he began his work: Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, the middle sector of the Eastern front, the southern sector of the Eastern front. And then on the next page of the English-and I imagine it is also on your next page- it tells how they were classified, those that were brought back:

"1,383 Russian SS Auxiliaries, 5,953 Ukrainian SS Auxiliaries, 2,354 White Ruthenian SS Auxiliaries, 1,012 Lithuanian SS Auxiliaries."

Then he gets into the Air Force: "3,000 Estonian Air Force Auxiliaries," and so on. Some went to the Navy.

I am not going to read all of it; but it gives you an idea of what distribution was made of these men, or young boys and girls rather than men. You will notice that a considerable number went to the SS.


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VON SCHIRACH: Yes, but Hauptbannfuehrer Nickel's letter bears a stamp with the words "Reich Minister for Occupied Eastern Territories." That means he was not acting on behalf of the Reich Youth Leader's department but on behalf of the Reich Ministry for the East.

MR. DODD: Yes. I also want to ask you if you will look at Page 6. I think it is Page 5 of the original of your German. You will find what personnel Hauptbannfuehrer Nickel had for the purpose of carrying out his task. He had members of the Hitler Youth, so he says: 5 leaders, 3 BDM leaders, 71 German youth leaders as translators and assistant instructors, 26 SS leaders, 234 noncommissioned officers and troops, drivers, and translators of the SS. And of the Air Force personnel, he had 37 officers, 221 noncoms, and so on.

Does that help your memory any with this program that your youth people were engaging in? Do you recall any more of it now?

VON SCHIRACH: It does not help my memory at all, because I hear this for the first time from this document. I was not informed of the activities of the Eastern Ministry in Russia, and I do not know what assignment the Eastern Ministry gave to Hitler Youth Leader Nickel. I assume responsibility for what was done on my orders, but anything done on the orders of others must be their responsibility.

MR. DODD: Let me show you something with respect to your answer that you have just made. That personnel that I read out, you know, was only in one part of the program. And on the last page of the document you will see on how wide an area Nickel was operating. He was operating in co-operation with the Netherlands Hitler Youth Operational Command, the Adria Hitler Youth Operational Command, the Southern Hitler Youth Operational Command in Slovakia and Hungary, the Lieutenant Nagel Special Command in refugee camps within the Reich, and then, interestingly enough, the field offices in Vienna.

That is where you were located at the time, is it not? And you

are telling the Tribunal you did not know anything about this program and the participation of your Hitler Youth Leaders?

VON SCHIRACH: I received no written or verbal report from Nickel. His report, as can be seen from the letter, went to the Reich Ministry for the Occupied Eastern Territories, and to what extent the Reich Youth Leader was being informed is not known to me. I myself do not know what took place. What I do know of the entire affair I very clearly stated in my testimony with reference to the Junkers works and the professional training which these youngsters


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were given in Germany. Apart from that I have no further knowledge.

MR. DODD: Observe also, if you will, Mr. Witness, that your Hitler Youth Operational Command was in Poland and even in northern Italy. And now I ask you once again, as the long-time Hitler Youth Leader, as the leader for the War Commitment of Youth, then Gauleiter in Vienna, with part of this program being carried on in Vienna and the whole program being carried on on this' vest scale, do you want the Tribunal to believe that you knew nothing about it?

VON SCHIRACH: I have no knowledge of it, but I assume responsibility for it.

MR. DODD: You told the Tribunal in your direct examination that you wrote the letter to Streicher's Sturmer.

I would like to submit this in evidence, Mr. President, so that the Tribunal will have an idea of what it appeared like on the front page of Der Sturmer.

Perhaps-if you would like to look at it, you may, of course, Mr. Witness. It is USA-871. I just wanted you to have a look at it before it was submitted. You know about it anyway.

VON SCHIRACH: I already made a statement about that the other day.

MR. DODD: Yes, I did not wish to go into it further. What I do want to ask you, Mr. Witness, is: Do I understand you clearly when I say that from your testimony we gathered that it was Hitler who ordered the evacuation of the Jews from Vienna and that you really did not suggest it or wish to see it carried out? Is that a fair understanding of your testimony of a day or two ago?

VON SCHIRACH: I stated the other day, and I repeat this, that the idea of evacuating the Jews from Vienna was Hitler's idea which he communicated to me in 1940 at his headquarters. Furthermore, and I want to make this quite clear, I stated that after the events of those November days in 1938 I was actually of the opinion that it would be better for the Jewish population to be accommodated in a closed settlement than to be regularly singled out by Goebbels as a target for his propaganda and his organized actions. I also said that I identified myself with that action suggested by Hitler, but did not carry it out.

MR. DODD: Now you had a meeting at the Fuehrer's headquarters in October 1940. Present was the Defendant Frank and the now notorious Koch whom we have heard so much about. Do you remember that meeting?

VON SCHIRACH: I no longer recall it. exactly.


27 May 46

MR. DODD: Now, you mean you do not recall that meeting at all''

VON SCHIRACH: In October 1940 I was in the Reich Chancellery because that was the time when I was organizing the evacuation of youth. It is possible that at lunch...

THE PRESIDENT: You were asked whether you recalled a particular meeting in October 1940 with certain particular people. Do you remember it or do you not?

VON SCHIRACH: I have no recollection of it. If I am shown a document, then I can confirm it.

MR. DODD: Very well; that is what I wanted to know. I will now show you the document USSR-172. A part of this document was read over the system for the Tribunal bar Colonel Pokrovsky. Now you will observe that on 2 October-this is a memorandum, by the way, made up of the meeting. Herr Martin Bormann compiled these notes, so I assume he was there too. After a dinner at the Fuehrer's apartment there developed a conversation on the nature of the Government General:

"The treatment of the Poles and the incorporation already approved by the Fuehrer for the districts Petrikau and Tomassov."

Then it says:

"The conversation began when Reich Minister Dr. Frank informed the Fuehrer that the activities in the Government General could be termed very successful. The Jews in Warsaw and other cities were now locked up in the ghettos and Krakow would very shortly be cleared of them. Reichsleiter Von Schirach, who had taken his seat at the Fuehrer's other side, remarked that he still had more than 50,000 Jews in Vienna whom Dr. Frank would have to take over. Party Member Dr. Frank said this was impossible. Gauleiter Koch then pointed out that he, too, had up to now not transferred either Poles or Jews from the District of Ziechenau, but that these Jews and Poles would now, of course, have to be accepted by the Government General."

And it goes on to say that Dr. Frank protested against this also. He said there were not housing facilities-I am not quoting directly, I do not want to read all of it-and that there were not sufficient other facilities. Do you remember that conference now?

VON SCHIRACH: Yes, I have refreshed my memory now.

MR. DODD: Yes. And you suggested that you wanted to get 50,000 Jews moved into Frank's territory out of Vienna, didn't you?

VON SCHIRACH: That is not correct. The Fuehrer asked me how many Jews were still in Vienna, and at that time-I mentioned


21 May 46

this during my own testimony the other day and it is contained in the files-there were still 60,000 Jews in Vienna. During that conversation, in which the question of settling Jews in the Government General was discussed, I also said that these 60,000 Jews from Vienna were still to be transferred to the Government General. I told you earlier that as a result of the events of November 1938 I was in favor of the Fuehrer's plan to take the Jews to a closed settlement.

MR. DODD: Well now, later on, as you know from USA-681 concerning which your own counsel inquired, Lammers sent you a message in Vienna and he said the Fuehrer had decided, after receipt of one of the reports made by you, that the 60,000 Jews in Vienna would be deported most rapidly, and that was just 2 months after this conference that you had with Frank and Koch and Hitler, wasn't it?

VON SCHIRACH: Yes, since 1937-and I think that becomes clear from the Hossbach minutes-the Fuehrer had the idea of expatriating the Jewish population. This plan, however, did not become known to me until August 1940 when I took over the Vienna district. I reported to Hitler on that occasion, and he asked me how many Jews there were in Vienna. I answered his question, and he told me that he actually wanted all of them to be settled in the Government General.

MR. DODD: How many Jews did you, in fact, deport out of your district while you were the Gauleiter?

VON SCHIRACH: First of all, the practical measures of that action were not in my hands. I do not know how many of these 60,000 Jews were actually transported out of Vienna.

MR. DODD: Do you have any idea where they went to?

VON SCHIRACH: I was informed that the aged were being taken to Theresienstadt and the others to Poland, to the Government General. On one occasion-it was either when I took my oath of office as Governor or when I made a speech about the evacuation of children-I even asked Hitler how these Jews were being employed, and he told me: in accordance with their professions.

MR. DODD: We will get around to that. You remember, don't you, that they were sent, at least some of them were sent, to the cities of Riga and Minsk, and you were so notified. Do you remember receiving that information?


MR. DODD: Now take a look at Document 3921-PS, which becomes USA-872. Now this is a communication concerning the evacuation of Jews, and it shows that 50,000 Jews were to be sent


27 May 46

to the Minsk-Riga area, and you got a copy of this report as the Commissar for the Defense of the Reich, and if you will look on the last page you will see an initial there of your chief assistant, the SS man Dellbrugge, and also the stamp of your own office as having received it.

VON SCHIRACH: I can only see that Dr. Dellbrugge marked the matter for filing. It shows the letters "z.d.A." to the files.

MR. DODD: And he did not tell you about this report concerning the Jews? Even though you had been talking to Hitler about it? That they were being moved out of your area? I suppose your chief assistant did not bother to tell you anything about it. Is that what you want us to understand?


MR. DODD: Now then, take a look at another document which will shed some light on this one. It is USA-808, already in evidence. It tells you what happened to the Jews in Minsk and Riga, and this was also received in your office if you recall. Maybe it is not necessary to show it to you again. You remember the document- that is one of those monthly reports from Heydrich wherein he said that there were 29,000 Jews in Riga and they had been reduced to 2,500, and that 33,210 were shot by the special unit, and "Einsatz" group. Do you remember that?

VON SCHIRACH: During the last 2 days I looked at these monthly reports most carefully. The bottom right-hand corner of the cover of these monthly reports-and I want to make this categorically clear-bears initials something like "Dr. FSCH.," that is Dr. Fischer's initials. At the top the reports are not initialed by me, but by the Government President, with the notation that they should be put into the files. If I had read them...

MR. DODD: I am not suggesting that you had your initials on any document like this, but I am claiming that these documents came into your organization and into the hands of your principal assistant.

VON SCHIRACH: But I must point out that if they had been submitted to me, then there would have been on them the notation, "submitted to the Reichsleiter," and the official submitting them would have initialed this notation. If I myself had seen them, then my own initials would be on them with the letters "K.g.," noted.

MR. DODD: Yes. I want to remind you that the date of that report is February 1942, and I also want to remind you that in there as well Heydrich tells you how many Jews they had killed in Minsk. Now you made a speech one time in Poland about the Polish or the Eastern policy of Germany. Do you remember it, Mr. Witness? ,


27 May 46


MR. DODD: In Poland, yes.

· VON SCHIRACH: In 1939 I spent a short time in Poland, but i do not think I was there again later.

MR. DODD: Your memory seems particularly poor this morning. Don't you remember speaking in Katowice on 20 January 1942?

VON SCHIRACH: That is Upper Silesia.

MR. DODD: Upper Silesia, all right. Do you remember that speech?

VON SCHIRACH: Yes, I made a speech at Katowice.

MR. DODD: And did you talk about Hitler's policy for the Eastern Territories?

VON SCHIRACH: I cannot say from memory what I spoke about there. I have made many speeches.

MR. DODD: Well, I will ask that you be shown D-664, which becomes USA-873. You were speaking to a group of Party leaders and German youth leaders.


MR. DODD: In Paragraph 7, you dealt with the tasks of German youth in the East. The Hitler Youth had carried out political schooling along the line of the Fuehrer's Eastern policy and you went on to say how grateful you were to the Fuehrer for having turned the German people toward the East, because the East was the destiny of your people. What did you understand to be the Fuehrer's Eastern policy, or did you have a good understanding of it at that time?

VON SCHIRACH: I said this in Upper Silesia out of gratitude for the return of that territory to us.

MR. DODD: Well, I didn't ask you that, really. I asked you if you then understood the Fuehrer's policy when you made that speech?

VON SCHIRACH: On the basis of our victory over Poland and the recovery of German soil, I naturally affirmed Germany's policy.

MR. DODD: You not only affirmed it, but I want to know if you really understood it.

VON SCHIRACH: I do not quite know how I should answer that question. Probably Hitler's conception of the term Eastern policy was quite different from mine.

MR. DODD: But my point is that he had told you about it, hadn't he, some time before you made this speech?


27 May 46

You had better look back at that document you have in your hands, USSR-172, and you will find that after you and Frank and Koch and Hitler finished talking about deporting the Jews from Vienna, the Fuehrer then told you what he intended to do with the Polish people, and it is not a very pretty story, if you will look at it. VON SCHIRACH: Hitler says here:

"The ideal picture would be that a Pole in the Government General had only a small parcel of land sufficient to feed himself and his family fairly well. Anything else he might require in cash for clothing, additional food, and so on he would have to earn by working in Germany. The Government General would be the central office for providing untrained workers, particularly agricultural workers. The livelihood of these workers would be assured, for they could always be used as cheap labor. There would be no question of further agricultural labor for Poland."

MR. DODD: Let me read a few excerpts that I think you have missed:

"The Fuehrer further emphasized that the Poles, in direct contrast to our German workmen, are born for hard labor..." and so on. "The standard of living in Poland has to be and to remain low."

Moving over to the next page:

"We, the Germans, had on one hand overpopulated industrial districts, while there was also a shortage of manpower for agriculture. That is where we could make use of Polish laborers. For this reason, it would be right to have a large surplus of manpower in the Government General so that every year the laborers needed by the Reich could in fact be procured from there. It is indispensable to keep in mind that there must be no Polish land owners. However cruel this may sound, wherever they are, they must be exterminated. Of course, there must be no mixing of blood with the Poles."

Further on, he had to stress once more that:

'`There should be one master only for the Poles, the Germans. Two masters side by side cannot exist. All representatives of the Polish intelligentsia are to be exterminated. This sounds cruel, but such is the law of life."

Stopping there for a minute, by the way, Mr. Witness-you are a man of culture, so you have told the Tribunal-how did that sentiment expressed by the Fuehrer impress you?

VON SCHIRACH: I have never agreed with these opinions of the Fuehrer, and I said here that I approached him in 1943 on the


27 May 46

subject of this policy in the Ukraine. When in 1942 I talked about Eastern policy in Katowice, the German town of Katowice, to the German population of Upper Silesia, then, of course, I did not mean this brutal Polish policy of Hitler.

MR. DODD: But you knew about it when you made the speech, did you not?

VON SCHIRACH: I did not recollect it on that occasion 2 years later, and my speech did not mean it either.

MR. DODD: You forgot that Hitler said he must exterminate the intelligentsia, that you must be masters of these people, that they must remain at a low standard of living? Did that pass out of your mind so easily?

VON SCHIRACH: I remember that speech in Katowice; I spoke there about completely different matters. I assume that the Prosecution even has the shorthand record of that speech and need only submit it here. This is just a short extract.

MR. DODD: But, you see, Mr. Witness, the point is, knowing what the policy was, I would like to have you tell the Tribunal how you could urge and praise that policy to a group of young people and party leaders on the occasion of this speech in Katowice.

VON SCHIRACH: The policy which I was recommending to youth leaders there was not the policy which Hitler developed in his table talk.

MR. DODD: Of course, you said it was the Fuehrer's policy in your speech, and you know what it was, but I won't press it further if that is your answer.

VON SCHIRACH: Very often probably-and I once said this here-I supported the policy of the Fuehrer out of erroneous loyalty to him. I know that it was not right.

MR. DODD: That is what I want to know. You were, weren't you, acting under an impulse of loyalty to the Fuehrer. Now you recognize it to be erroneous, and that is all I am inquiring for, and if you tell the Tribunal that, I shall be perfectly satisfied.

VON SCHIRACH: Yes, I am prepared to admit that.

MR. DODD: Very well. And, Mr. Witness, now we are getting to it; that goes for all these things that went on.

VON SCHIRACH: Not at all.

MR. DODD: Don't you have to say to the Tribunal, concerning your letter to Der Sturmer, and all these things you said about the Jewish people to the young people, and this slow building up of race hatred in them, the co-operation with the SS, your handling


27 May 46

of the Jews in Vienna, that for all these things you are, and for all of them, responsible?


MR. DODD: Finally, I want to offer in evidence, Mr. President, some excerpts from these weekly SS reports to which I referred briefly on Friday, so that they shall be before the Tribunal. There are 55 of them, Mr. President, and they run consecutively by weeks, and they all bear the stamp of this defendant's of lice as having been received there, and they supplant the monthly report which was received up to the time that weekly reports began arriving.

We have not had all of them translated or mimeographed, and if the defendant wishes to put in any others, we will make them available, of course. We have selected a few as samples to illustrate the kind of report that was contained in these weekly reports, and I wish to offer them.

The first one is Number 1, beginning on 1 May 1942, and Numbers 4, 6, 7, 9, 38, 41, and 49.

Now I want to make this clear to you, Mr. Witness, out of fairness. Besides statements concerning what was happening to the Jews, you will find in these weekly reports a number of statements about the partisan affairs in the East as well. These excerpts have mostly to do with what happened to the Jews, and we have not, Mr. President, drawn out a great number that had to do with the partisans. There are a number, however, that do have to do with partisans and not with the Jews, so we wish there to be no doubt about how we offer these weekly reports. I just want to ask you, with respect to these weekly reports: Do you this morning recall that you did receive them every week in your office?

VON SCHIRACH: But that is not my office. My office is the Central Office. That office was directed by the Government President, and one of his officials initialed the files, as appears from the marking on them, and as any official trained in German office routine can confirm. They were then put before the Government President who marked them "for the files" and initialed them. I could not know these documents at all.

MR. DODD: Now just a minute. You were the Reich Commissioner for the defense of that territory; weren't you?


MR. DODD: And that is the stamp that is on these weekly reports, isn't it?


MR. DODD: Well, what do you mean by saying that it was not your office?


27 May 46

VON SCHIRACH: Because the mail, by a procedure similar to that in a ministry, where it goes to the of lice of the minister, reached me in the Central Office; and a corresponding notation had to be made on these files. I can understand perfectly well why the Government President, since I was overburdened with work, did not submit to me material which had no connection at all with Vienna or my activities, but which was merely informatory and concerned with events in Russia, mostly guerrilla fighting in Russia.

MR. DODD: I am going to ask you again, as I have so many times in the course of this examination: Dellbrugge, who initialed these, was your principal assistant, wasn't he? Yes or no?

VON SCHIRACH: Yes, he was one of my three deputies.

MR. DODD: And he was also an SS man, and so was your other principal assistant, as we asked the other day.

VON SCHIRACH: Dellbrugge was a high SS leader. He was a special confidant of the Reichsfuehrer SS.

MR. DODD: How did he happen to be working for you?

VON SCHIRACH: He was assigned to me there.

MR. DODD: Mr. President, I don't think it is necessary to read any excerpts from these weekly reports. They have been translated into four languages, and-well, I am misinformed. I thought they were translated. Then I think it would be better if we do have them translated and submit them at a later date rather than take the time to read them now.

I have no further questions.

THE PRESIDENT: Do you want to re-examine? We had better adjourn now.

[A recess was taken.]

MAJOR GENERAL G. A. ALEXANDROV "Assistant Prosecutor for the U.S.S.R.): Do you admit that the Hitler Jugend had the task of inculcating German youth and children, starting from 9 years of age, with Fascist ideology?

Do you hear me?

VON SCHIRACH: Yes, I understood you to ask, whether, I would admit having inculcated Fascist ideas into 10- to 14-year-old children of the Hitler Youth?

As I said in my testimony a few days ago, I saw my mission and my duty in educating German youth to be citizens of the National Socialist State...

THE PRESIDENT: [Interposing.] That is not an answer to the question. It is not necessary for you to tell us what you said in


27 May 46

your previous evidence. Will you just answer the question: Do you admit that you inculcated in the Hitler Youth Hitler's ideology? You can answer that "yes" or "no."

VON SCHIRACH: I cannot answers that question with "yes," because it referred to Fascism. There is a great difference between Fascism and National Socialism. I cannot answer that question with "yes." I did educate German youth in the spirit of National Socialism, that I can admit.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: I would like you to confirm the evidence which you gave on 16 November 1945, during your interrogation. You defined your personal attitude to Hitler in the following way; and I quote your evidence: "I was an enthusiastic adherent of Hitler and I considered everything that he wrote and stated to be a manifestation of truth."* Do you confirm this statement?

VON SCHIRACH: I did not say that, and that is not a record which was submitted to me. I never spoke of Hitler as a deity, never. I remember exactly, General, that you interrogated me on this point, and I was asked whether I had been an enthusiastic follower. I confirmed that, and I spoke about the time when I joined the Movement; but I never set up the comparison with which I am now confronted in the translation; I never said that I believed in Hitler as a deity, never.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: You do not understand me correctly. Nothing is said here about deity. Your evidence has been taken down, and I will repeat it: "I was an enthusiastic adherent of Hitler, and I considered everything that he wrote and stated to be a manifestation of truth." *

Do you confirm this statement? Answer the question directly.

VON SCHIRACH: The translation is quite inexact. May I ask you to put the exact question again?

GEN. ALEXANDROV: I will quote your statement again: "I was an enthusiastic adherent of Hitler, and I considered everything that he wrote and stated to be a manifestation of truth." * Is that right?

VON SCHIRACH: I am accused now of having said: "I was an enthusiastic adherent of Hitler, and I considered everything that he wrote and stated to be the personification of truth." That is how I understood it, and I must say I could never have uttered such nonsense.

DR. SERVATIUS: May I give an explanation of this translation? I think the correct German would have to be: "I considered what Hitler said to be a manifestation of truth," and not "the

* The interpreter mistranslated this "and looked upon him as a deity.''


27 May 46

personification of truth"; then it would be intelligible. There is a mistake in the interpretation.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: Your defense counsel has perhaps helped you to answer my question.

VON SCHIRACH: General, that was not my defense counsel, but the defense counsel for the Defendant Sauckel. If it is translated "manifestation of truth," then of course the whole passage makes sense, and also corresponds roughly to what I said to you when I described the period of my youth.


In your book entitled the Hitler Jugend it said, and I quote Page 17: "Hitler's book, Mein Kampf, is our bible." Do you confirm this? Did you write that?

VON SCHIRACH: But I added something to that in my book The Hitler Youth, Its Faith and Organization. I want to say, first of all, that I did write this book. I wrote it...

GEN. ALEXANDROV: I would like to interrupt you. I do not need such detailed explanations, and I would like you to answer the question: Is that sentence contained in your book?

VON SCHIRACH: I have just confirmed that, but I would like to add an explanation. In this book-which I wrote in 1933, and which was published in 1933 I said: "We could not yet offer detailed reasons for our belief, we simply believed. But when Hitler's Mein Kampf appeared, it was like a bible, which we almost learned by heart so as to answer the questions of doubtful and deliberating critics."

That is how I worded it at the time; that is correct.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: I would like to put another more precise question to you. Do you admit that the Hitler Jugend was a political organization which, under the leadership of the NSDAP, carried out the policy of this Party among German youth?

VON SCHIRACH: The Hitler Youth was a large educational community on a political basis, but I cannot admit that it was led by the Party; it was led by me. I was a member of the Executive Committee of the Party, and in that sense one might speak of a Party influence. But I can see no reason for having to confirm this, since I have already testified to it. It is correct that the Hitler Youth was the youth organization of the Party.

If that is the sense of your question, I will confirm it.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: Yes, I just had that in view.

I would like to remind you of the tasks which Hitler had assigned for the education of German youth. That is set out in Rauschning's


27 May 46

book, which has already been submitted as documentary evidence before the Tribunal as USSR-378. I quote Page 252 of that book:

"In my schools we will bring up, youth who will make the world shudder with fear, youth that is hard, exigent, unafraid, and cruel. That is my wish. Youth must have all these qualities; they must be indifferent to sufferings; they must have neither weakness nor softness. I would like to see in their eyes the proud, self-sufficient glitter of a beast of prey."

You educated German youth in accordance with these demands of Hitler. Do you admit that?

VON SCHIRACH: I will not admit what Herr Rauschning wrote. Just by accident I was present at a conversation between Hitler and Rauschning and, judging by it, I must say that the statements in Rauschning's book represent an unfaithful record of what Hitler said. Just by accident I witnessed a conversation between them.

Hitler did not give me the directives which Rauschning sets forth here as the guiding principles laid down by Hitler himself for the training of the Hitler Youth.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: I did not ask you to give such a detailed explanation. I would like you to answer the question put to you briefly in order to shorten the time of interrogation. You have stated the Hitler Youth did not educate German youth in the militaristic spirit and did not prepare German youth for future aggressive wars. I would like to remind you of certain statements you made in that very same book of yours, "Hitler Youth," right here on Page 83 of that book. Talking of the younger generation, the so-called Jungvolk, you wrote:

"They carry the National Socialist characteristics. The toy merchants are worried because these children no longer need toys; they are interested in camp tents, spears, compasses and maps. It is a particular trait of our youth. Everything that is against our unity must be thrown to the flames."

And these also were the directives which German soldiers, trained in the Hitler Youth, followed when they set on fire houses of the peaceful population in occupied territories, isn't that true? Is that contained in the book, the passage I have just read?

VON SCHIRACH: What is in front of me now, is contained in my book. What I heard from the interpreter is not in my book.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: Well, then make your corrections.

VON SCHIRACH: May I read the correct passage?

"The toy merchants have complained to me that the boys" -they mean the Jungvolk-"no longer want toys, but are interested only in tents, spears, compasses, and maps. I can not help the toy merchants, for I agree with the boys that


37 May 46

the times of the Indians are finally gone. What is 'Old Shatterhand,' what is a trapper in the backwoods of America compared to our troop leader? A miserable, dusty remnant from the lumber chest of our fathers. Not only the toy merchants are complaining but also the school-cap manufacturers. Who wears a school cap nowadays? And who nowadays is a high-school boy or girl? In some towns the boys have banded together and publicly burned such school caps. Burning is, in fact, a specialty of new youth. The border fences of the minor states of the Reich have also been reduced to ashes in the fires of your youth.

"It is a simple but heroic philosophy; everything that is against our unity must be thrown to the flames."

That, General, is the expression of the "storm and stress" of youth which has found its special unity.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: According to your opinion, the philosophy implies that children must no longer play with toys, but must do other things. Did I understand you correctly? I do not see any essential difference between my quotation and yours.

VON SCHIRACH: May I say that I think the military training of the youth of Germany falls much behind that of the Soviet Union.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: This is an irrelevant comparison. On Page 98 of your book, speaking of the Hitler Youth, you wrote:

"They strive to be political soldiers. Their model is Adolf Hitler."

Did you write that?

VON SCHIRACH: I have not found the place; is it Page 98?

THE PRESIDENT: The witness has admitted he wrote the whole book, hasn't he?

GEN. ALEXANDROV: In order not to lengthen the proceedings we will pass to the next question.

You have already spoken here of a specially created organization of motorized Hitler Youth; you assert this organization had sport as its aim; is that right?

VON SCHIRACH: In connection with the training of the motorized Hitler Youth I spoke also of ground and driving exercises, and I admitted that the motorized Hitler Youth had promilitary significance. I did not dispute this point at all.

IBM; PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd cross-examined the witness at very considerable length on these matters about the special units of the Hitler Youth, and it really is not any good to go over it all again.


27 May 46

GEN. ALEXANDROV: Mr. President, several points which are still unexplained will be clarified through the following questions.

Did you have knowledge of the fact that at the end of 1938 the organization of motorized Hitler Youth consisted of 92 detachments, that is of 100,000 young men?

VON SCHIRACH: I cannot tell you from memory whether there were 92 detachments, because the word "Abteilung"-that was the translation-was not a designation for any unit of the Hitler Youth. I gave the exact strength of the motorized Hitler Youth for 1938 in one of my statements here either to my defense counsel or to Mr. Dodd. I gave exact figures of its strength in 1938.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: No, I am speaking of 1938, and you give the number of 100,000 Hitler Youths who formed the motorized youth organization. Do you have knowledge of this?

VON SCHIRACH: I cannot tell you from memory whether there were 100,000 members of the motorized Hitler Youth in 1938. There might have been 60,000 or 120,000. I cannot say; I do not know. I have not the documents to prove it.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: Yes, but I am quoting this number from data given by the magazine Das Archiv. I would like to recall to you the tasks of these organizations as they were set out in this magazine in November-December 1939. I quote:

"The preliminary training of the motorized Hitler Youth must be carried out in special training groups, and later in special motorization schools of the National Socialist Motor Corps."

I quote this excerpt according to the document book of the Defense, Document 20, Page 50 of the Russian text. I repeat:

"The preliminary training of the motorized Hitler Youth must be carried out in special training groups, and later in special motorization schools of the National Socialist Motor Corps, but this applies only to youths who have reached the age of 17 or more. The course of instruction includes motor mechanics, a driving license test, field driving exercises, and also ideological schooling. Those who successfully participate in this course of instruction will be admitted into the National Socialist Motor Corps."

This does not quite agree with your statement that the aim was sport, does it?

THE PRESIDENT: We heard a long commentary about these special units, and we really do not want to hear it any more. If you have any questions on new matters which have not been dealt with by Mr. Dodd, we shall be glad to hear them, but we do not want to hear about whether there are 60,000 or 70,000 or 100,000 or 120,000 Hitler Youths in the motorized units.


27 May 46

GEN. ALEXANDROV: I am only quoting what has not been mentioned yet.

THE PRESIDENT: General, we do not want to hear it. We do not want to hear it.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: I will pass on to the next question.

You issued a directive for a nation-wide training scheme of the members of the Hitler Youth, known as "Hitler Youth on Duty." This directive foresaw the following kind of education for the Hitler Youth: the theory of weapons, the theory of firing, target shooting, rifle practice, military drill, topography, and field exercises; also instruction in the use of the field compass and the goniometer. Are you acquainted with this directive? Do you consider that this also did not constitute military training of German youth?

VON SCHIRACH: I spoke in great detail about the training of "Hitler Youth on Duty" in my testimony last Thursday, and I particularly discussed rifle training which takes up 40 pages of this book. I mentioned in that connection that this rifle training was carried out according to the rules of international rifle sport and that the British Board of Education recommended this rifle training, and also the entire book, to all Boy Scouts. I do not dispute that I published this book Hitler Youth and that it served as a guiding directive for this training. But I already said that here the other day.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: You have denied that the Hitler Youth played an important part in the Fifth Column in Poland. Similar methods were carried out especially in Yugoslavia. The Yugoslav Government has put at the disposal of the Soviet Prosecution documents which estimated the part of the "Hitler Youth on Duty," under the leadership of the Hitler Jugend, in the organization of the Fifth Column on Yugoslav territory. Do you have any knowledge of this? Do you know anything about this?

VON SCHIRACH: The Hitler Youth was never active in the Fifth Column either in Yugoslavia or anywhere else.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: I will then quote excerpts from the official report of the Yugoslav Government. This has already been submitted to the Tribunal as Exhibit USSR-36. I quote from Page 3 of the Russian text of this document:

"The Reich Government and the Hitler Party have secretly organized the German minority. From 1930 they had their own organization, the 'Union of Culture.' Already in 1932 Dr. Jacob Awender held the view that the 'Union of Culture' should be Fascist in its outlook. In 1935 he was put at the head of an active youth organization which shortly afterwards received the name of 'Organization of Revival."'


27 May 46

Do you know anything about this?

VON SCHIRACH: I cannot comment on the information which you have just mentioned. I heard that Bohle had some youth leaders there as his representatives, but I do not know any details. On the subject of Yugoslavia I can tell you from my previous activity that my relations with Yugoslav youth were very amiable and friendly in the period before the war.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: I am not interested in that. I will try to help your memory by quoting a few excerpts from a supplementary report of the Yugoslav Government, which is submitted to the Tribunal as Yugoslav Exhibit, Document Number USSR-357. On Page 5, in the third line of the Russian text of this document, it says:

"In 1937 there began among the Volksdeutsche in our country an orientation towards National Socialism, and the first groups of youth started going to Germany for special courses of instruction."

Further down on Page 8, we read that later on, but before the war with the Soviet Union, the greater part of these members became officers of the German Army. In addition, a special SS division, "Prinz Eugen," was formed from among members of the youth organizations. Do you deny these facts?

VON SCHIRACH: I can admit some; others I must deny. May I explain this? Since 1933 I tried to bring about good relations with Yugoslav youth. Starting in 1936 or 1937 I extended invitations to Yugoslav youth groups, as well as to youth groups of all European countries, to visit and inspect German youth institutions. Yugoslav youth groups actually came to Germany in reply to my invitation. But I know nothing about the enlisting of Yugoslav youths in the German Army; I do not believe that. I can only say that at the time of the regency of Prince Regent Paul there was very close collaboration with Yugoslav youth. During the war we maintained good relations with both Serbian and Croatian youth. German youth visited Serbia and Croatia, while Serbian and Croatian youth came to German youth camps, German youth leader training schools, and so on, and looked at our institutions. That, I think, is everything I can say about this. But we had friendly relations not only with Yugoslavia but also with many other countries.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: You did not understand me correctly. I was not speaking of Yugoslav or Croatian youth. I am speaking of the youth of the German minority in Yugoslavia who are mentioned in this report and who, with the help of the Hitler Youth, created centers of Fifth Column activity to engage in subversive operations and recruit for the SS units and the Wehrmacht. That is what I am speaking about. Are these facts known to you?


27 May 46

VON SCHIRACH: I know that there were young people among the German minority in Yugoslavia, just as in Romania and Hungary. I know that this German youth felt that it belonged to the Hitler Youth, and I think it is perfectly natural that these young people welcomed the German troops on their arrival. I cannot give information on the extent to which collaboration existed between the troops and the youth but that it did exist is also quite natural. Of course, it could not be considered military collaboration, but rather the kind of co-operation which will always exist between an occupying force and the youth of the same country or nationality as the members of that force. But that has nothing to do with espionage or the like.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: But the major part of the SS Division "Prinz Eugen" which was formed on Yugoslav territory was made up of Hitler Youth members from the German national minority in Yugoslavia; and this was the result of the preparatory work of the Hitler Youth Do you admit that?

VON SCHIRACH: I do not know how the divisions of the Waffen-SS, of which there were very many, were recruited. It is possible that some members of the German minority were recruited then and there, but I have no definite information on this.

GET. ALEXANDROV: I will quote a few excerpts from two German documents. They have not yet been submitted to the Tribunal. The first excerpt is from a book by Dr. Sepp Janko who was the youth leader in Yugoslavia, entitled Speeches and Articles. He wrote:

"All our national work before 1 September 1939 depended on the help of the Reich. When on 1 September 1939 the war began and it at first appeared impossible to receive further aid, there was a danger that all our work would be interrupted...."

And later:

"The fact that in this cause, so decisive for a nation and its worth, I put at the disposal of the Fuehrer almost the entire German national group in the former State of Yugoslavia and gave him so many volunteers as soldiers, is to me a subject of great pride...."

I submit this to the Tribunal as evidence; Exhibit USSR-459.

The next excerpt is from an article, "We in the Batchka," written in 1943 by Otto Kohler who was leader of German youth in that territory. I submit this document to the Tribunal as Exhibit USSR-456. Otto Kohler wrote in that article:

"Ninety percent of our youth are members of the Hitler Youth, the youth organization for Germans abroad."


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The statements ought to convince you that the subversive activity and organization of the Fifth Column, the "nazification" of the German minority and its enlistment in military units were actually carried out on Yugoslav territory through the Hitler Youth. Please answer "yes' or "no."

VON SCHIRACH: No. But I should like to comment on these documents. This Dr. Sepp Janko who is said to have been the leader of the Volksdeutsche in Yugoslavia is not known to me either by name or personally. I have visited Yugoslavia several times in the past, but neither in 1937, when I believe I was there for the first time, nor later in 1938 when I visited Prince Regent Paul, did I concern myself with the Volksdeutsche youth there or with their leaders. On those visits I spoke only with youth of Yugoslav nationality. That is all I have to say about the first document, which on the whole does not refer to youth at all.

The second document, which is signed by one Otto Kohler, who calls himself the "D. J. leader"-probably German youth leader-in Subdivision 7, to that document I can only say that it was taken from a book about German youth in Hungary which appeared in 1943. In the Batchka we had a very large settlement of Germans, people who had been living there for 150 or 200 years, and this youth leader organized the German youth there with the approval of the Hungarian Government and the Hungarian Minister of Education and in collaboration with other Hungarian authorities. It was an entirely legal measure, and no controversy existed about it between the two countries. These young people were not members of the German Hitler Youth, but they belonged to Hungarian youth groups of the German minority in Hungary.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: And did the Reich Leadership of Hitler Youth have no connection at all with such organizations abroad?

VON SCHIRACH: Of course we visited these youths. When, for instance, I was a guest in Budapest, the Hungarians themselves asked me whether I would like to visit the villages and the youth of the German minority. Neither the Regent nor any other government authority had any objections to this. There was no reason why I should ask German youth leaders to engage in espionage in Hungary. I could just as easily have asked Hungarian youth leaders with whom I was on very good terms.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: Who was the leader of the Hitler Youth organizations abroad? There was a special foreign section in the Reich Leadership of the Hitler Youth. Its task was the direction of the German youth organizations abroad, was it not?

VON SCHIRACH: That is not correct. The foreign office of the Reich Youth Leadership was, if I may say so, the "foreign office"


27 May 46

of the younger generation. It was the task of the foreign office to maintain contact with other national youth organizations, to invite youth leaders from abroad, to organize tours of foreign youth organizations through Germany, and to arrange visits of German youth to other countries, in co-operation with the foreign offices of those countries; in a case like this, the foreign office of the Reich Youth Leadership would approach the Foreign Office, and the Foreign Office would approach the ambassador or representative of the country involved. The Organization of Youth Abroad to which you are referring was an organization subordinate to the Organization of Germans Abroad, the head of which was Gauleiter Bohle, who has already been heard in this court. This youth abroad consisted of German nationals who formed units of the Hitler Youth in the countries where they were living. For instance in Budapest the children of the German colony, starting with the children of the German Minister...

THE PRESIDENT: Surely, Defendant, it is not necessary to make such a long speech about it.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: You are giving too many details. The next question:

In the Ministry for the Eastern Occupied Territories, a special youth department was created in the first main of lice. What do you know about the work of this department and what was its relationship to the Reich Leadership of the Hitler Youth? Please answer briefly.

VON SCHIRACH: From my knowledge, I can say that when the Reich Ministry for the Occupied Eastern Territories was created, Reichsleiter Rosenberg expressed a wish that the Reich Youth Leader should put at his disposal an official for the youth department in the new Ministry. This official was appointed; he was taken into the Ministry and directed its youth department. He was, of course, responsible to the Eastern Minister. I cannot say more about this point. Reports from this department did not reach me.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: You mean that the Reich Leadership of the Hitler Youth appointed a representative to a post in the Ministry for Eastern Occupied Territories, and that this gentleman did not send in any report to the Reich Youth Leadership; is that right?

VON SCHIRACH: General, I meant that the head of this department or whatever he was, this official in the Eastern Ministry who came from the Hitler Youth, did not report to me. He naturally reported to his immediate superiors in the Reich Youth Leadership. The Reich Youth Leadership was located in Berlin, and I assume that the officials of its staff were in constant touch with him.


27 May 46

GEN. ALEXANDROV: As I understand it, the measures that were carried out by the youth department in the Reich Ministry for Eastern Occupied Territories were carried out with the knowledge of the Reich Youth Leadership; is that right?

VON SCHIRACH: The measures taken there were carried out according to directions laid down by the Reich Minister, who was the immediate superior of his officials. If actual youth measures, the treatment of youth, and so on, were dealt with, I am sure that this official or youth leader discussed the matter with the Reich Youth Leadership and made a report to it. The Minister is always responsible for the youth official in his Ministry, and not the organization from which the youth official happens to come.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: I understand. To the question put to you by your defense counsel regarding the participation of the Hitler Youth in the atrocities committed in Lvov, you answered that the testimony of the French citizen, Ida Vasseau, supplied by the Extraordinary State Commission, is not true.

Mr. President, the Soviet Prosecution has had occasion to interrogate the witness Ida Vasseau. The defense counsel for the Defendant Schirach also requested an interrogation. I now submit to the Tribunal excerpts from the testimony of the witness Vasseau, dated 16 May 1946, and I would like to submit it as Exhibit USSR-455. I shall now read the excerpts into the record:

"The atrocities against the Jewish and the Soviet population of Lvov were perpetrated not only by adult Germans and old Nazis, but also by the German youth of the Fascist youth organization in Lvov. These youngsters, dressed in uniforms, armed with heavy sticks, hunting knives, and often with pistols, ran about the streets, broke into Jewish apartments and destroyed everything in them. They killed all the inhabitants of these apartments, including the children. Very often they stopped children who looked suspicious to them in the streets, shouted: "Stop, you damned Jew!" and shot them on the spot. This Hitlerite youth was often active in locating Jewish apartments, hunting Jews in hiding, setting traps, and assaulting innocent people on the streets, killing them if they were Jews and dragging others away to the Gestapo. Often their victims were Russians, Poles, Ukrainians, and people of other nationalities. This terror of adult and young Germans continued until the last day of the German occupation of Lvov. The intention of completely annihilating the Jews was especially apparent in the "Ghetto actions" in which Jewish children of various ages were systematically killed. They were put into houses specially set up for Jewish children and when


27 May 46

sufficient children had been assembled, the Gestapo accompanied by the Hitler Youth broke in and killed them." I end the reading of the statement of Ida Vasseau.

Thus, the Hitler Youth in the service of the German army, SS and the Gestapo took part in these atrocities. Do you admit that?

VON SCHIRACH: I do not believe a word of what is contained in this document.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: Well, that is your affair.

Mr. President, I am submitting to the Tribunal another document, USSR-454, excerpts from the testimony of the German prisoner of war Gert Bruno Knittel.

Gert Bruno Knittel, a hatter by trade, was born in 1924 in Saxony. After 1938 he was a member of the Hitler Youth. His sister Ursula was also a member of the National Socialist League of German Girls (BDM). In 1942, when he was 18 years old, he was called up for the German Army. Thus, he is a typical representative of the Hitler Youth, and his testimony is therefore of interest. This is what he relates about his service in the German Army. I quote:

"Not less than twice a week we were called upon to comb out the forests."

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I must object against the use of this document of which we have just received a copy. It does not appear from this copy whether the document was actually signed, whether it was sworn or who drew up this document, which seems to be a report. I must object to this document until these questions have been clarified.

Perhaps in this connection, Mr. President, I might comment on the other document which contains the testimony of Ida Vasseau-the writing is difficult to read. I assume that this witness is identical with the French national Ida Vasseau to whom a questionnaire was sent a long time ago with the permission of the Tribunal. We have been constantly waiting for the answers to this questionnaire, and now today we receive this report dated 16 May 1946, which apparently refers to the same witness. It is obvious that...

THE PRESIDENT: I am not following quite what you are saying. Are you saying that you have issued a questionnaire to the person who is alleged to have made this document?

DR. SAUTER: The High Tribunal approved a questionnaire to a French woman, Ida Vasseau; I will spell the name, V-a-s-s-e-a-u. This is the French woman, Ida Vasseau, who was working in an establishment in Lvov, and who is mentioned in the Lvov Commission report. Perhaps you remember, Mr. President, that one of these reports says that children were taken from the ghetto and given to


27 May 46

the Hitler Youth and that the Hitler Youth used these children as live targets. That is the statement of the witness Ida Vasseau, and I am sure that she is the same person who is now mentioned in the report of 16 May 1946. The remarkable thing is that in the report of 16 May 1946, she does not answer the questions which are set down in the questionnaire' but makes further allegations which are obviously not contained in the earlier Lvov Commission report. This is a very mysterious matter, and I believe it would not be just to the Defendant Von Schirach if I did not call your attention to these contradictions.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: May I give my explanation?

THE PRESIDENT: We would like to hear you in detail, General, in answer to what Dr. Sauter has said.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: Ida Vasseau, excerpts from whose statement I have read, is certainly the person of whom Dr. Sauter is speaking. I do not know to whom and through what channels the interrogatory was sent; it was not sent through our office. Ida Vasseau was interrogated on our own initiative and we could do so only on 16 May. A special interrogatory was not received by us, and we could not have sent it because the evidence was given only . . .

THE PRESIDENT: I have only got this document here in German and it doesn't appear to be a document signed or made by a person called "Vasseau" at all. I don't know whether it is dealing with something that Ida Vasseau is alleged to have said.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: This document is signed.

THE PRESIDENT: I said it wasn't signed by Vasseau.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: This document is signed by Ida Vasseau Thom and also by the interrogating officials, namely the Chief of the Investigation Branch, Public Prosecutor's Department for the Lvov Region, Kryzanovsky, and the public prosecutor for the Lvov Region, Kornetov. The interrogation took place on 16 May 1946.

THE PRESIDENT: Look at this document and see if it is the right document.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: Yes, these are excerpts from the interrogation of Ida Vasseau.

THE PRESIDENT: Is that the same document?

GEN. ALEXANDROV: Yes, yes, that is the same document which we are now submitting to the Tribunal

THE PRESIDENT: Is that the original you have got before you?

GEN. ALEXANDROV: No, this is an excerpt from the record, certified by the Chief of Documentation of the Soviet Delegation,


27 May 46

Colonel Karev. This is not the original record of the interrogatory. These are excerpts from it.

THE PRESIDENT: Are you saying that it is a document which is admissible under Article 21 or what are you saying about it?

GEN. ALEXANDROV: We are submitting it. If the Tribunal considers that it is necessary to bring out the original of the record, which at the present moment is at Lvov, we will be able to do so in a short time. If the Tribunal is not satisfied with these excerpts, we will very easily be able to submit the record in full

- THE PRESIDENT: Will you tell us what the document is? Is it an affidavit? Is it sworn to? Is it made before an official of the Soviet Union?

GEN. ALEXANDROV: There is a note on the record referring to the responsibility for false testimony, as set forth under Article 89 of the Penal Code of the Ukrainian S.S.R. This warning is in accordance with the requirements for legal procedure in the Soviet Union, and this warning was given to Ida Vasseau, as a special certification on the record shows.

THE PRESIDENT: Are you saying that it is a document which fits within Article 21 of the Charter?

GEN. ALEXANDROV: Yes, but if the Tribunal consider it necessary, we will later be able to submit the complete original record. I am now asking the Tribunal to accept the excerpts from this record which have been certified by the Chief of our Documentation Division.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, what is the date on which your interrogatory was allowed by the Tribunal and what was the date on which it was sent out to this person?

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, the interrogatory bears the date of 11 April.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: The interrogatory could not be sent because we did not know where the witness Vasseau was. We only discovered it recently.

THE PRESIDENT: You mean that the interrogatory has not been administered to the person who made this statement?

GEN. ALEXANDROV: This interrogatory could not have reached its destination because, I repeat, until quite recently the whereabouts of the witness Vasseau was unknown.

THE PRESIDENT: When you did find out where the witness was, the interrogatory could have been administered.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: Yes, yes, it can be sent to her. It can be done now if it is necessary.


27 May 46

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, may I point out the following: This woman, Ida Vasseau, was in Lvov when this statement which is mentioned in the Commission Report was made; that is clear from the report. I believe it is USSR-6, but I am not quite certain. Now, on 16 May of this year, this woman, Ida Vasseau, was also at Lvov; and her whereabouts were not unknown, since she was interrogated on that day. I had discussed the interrogatory which was sent to Vasseau with the Prosecution; it was at first said that the questions were suggestive or that something was not in order. But we came to terms and I altered the questions which I submitted to the High Tribunal according to the wishes of the Prosecution; so if the Soviet Delegation were willing, Ida Vasseau could be interrogated at any time. It is remarkable that in this later statement, this woman testified on something entirely different from what is set forth in her previous statement, and something entirely different from what she was asked in the interrogatory. I think it would be useful if Ida Vasseau were examined here.

THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute, what previous statement do you mean? What previous statements do you mean?

DR. SAUTER: The statement in the commission report of the City of Lvov. This commission report was read here once and it says that the Hitler Youth committed these outrages against the children; my questionnaire, which the Tribunal approved, deals with this point.

THE PRESIDENT: General, was the interrogatory submitted by Dr. Sauter shown to the witness Vasseau?

GEN. ALEXANDROV: No, it was not sent to her. May I, to clarify the matter, come back to the history of this interrogatory? The Soviet Prosecution submitted a document, the Report of the Extraordinary State Commission on German Atrocities in the Lvov Region, and this document contained a statement by the witness Ida Vasseau; no one interrogated her at that time. In this statement she said that she witnessed how the Hitler Youth used small children as targets. That was her statement in the Report of the Extraordinary State Commission. This document was accepted by the Tribunal. Then, on our own initiative-Dr. Sauter's interrogatory did not come to us and we did not send it out-the whereabouts of Ida Vasseau was established. She was examined by interrogating officers and supplemented the testimony which she had given before the Extraordinary State Commission. I am now submitting to the Tribunal excerpts from her interrogatory on 16 May in which she dwelt on certain details of the treatment of children by the Hitler Youth.

THE PRESIDENT: We all understand that, General, but the question is: Why, if interrogatories had been allowed by the


27 May 46

Tribunal and had been seen by the Prosecution and were dated sometime in April, why was the witness interrogated in May without having seen these interrogatories? This document is dated 16 May 1946, isn't it, Dr. Sauter?-Dr. Sauter tells us that interrogatories allowed by the Tribunal were dated in April.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: I do not know where Dr. Sauter sent his interrogatory. He did not send it through our office. I repeat that we did not send this interrogatory and could not have sent it on, for we did not know where Ida Vasseau lived. On our initiative steps were taken to establish her whereabouts, and when we found her she was interrogated, namely on 16 May.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn now.

[The Tribunal recessed until 1415 hours.]


27 May 46

Afternoon Session

THE PRESIDENT: General, the Tribunal will not admit this document at the present time, but it would wish that you should present the original document and at the same time the answers to the interrogatories which the Tribunal has ordered; and the Tribunal will call upon the Secretary General for a report upon the whole matter.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: Mr. President, during the recess I had a chance to talk this over with Dr. Sauter. He will give me the interrogatory and measures will be taken to get the necessary replies from the witness in the shortest possible time. Besides this the request of the Tribunal to get the original of the document will be complied with as soon as possible.

May I continue now with my interrogation?

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, please.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: I stopped at the testimony of Gert Bruno Knittel. Here is what he relates about his service in the German Army:

"Not less than twice a week we were sent to comb the forests, to round up guerrillas and to look for discontent against the German regime, so that these people could be arrested and shot immediately. Our ad Company, Field Depot Battalion 375, caught and shot five persons in the woods. Most possibly these persons were not even partisans or guerrillas, but merely citizens who went into the woods for personal matters. But we had orders to shoot all who crossed our path in the woods. I did this together with the other soldiers of my company.

"One day in June 1943, in a roundup in the village of Lishaysk, we surrounded the whole place with three to four companies so that no one could leave or enter the village. Outside each house that had to be searched. . ."

THE PRESIDENT: You are cross-examining the Defendant Von Schirach who was in Vienna. What has this document got to do with him?

GEN. ALEXANDROV: This is the testimony of one of the members of the Hitler Jugend regarding his participation in atrocities during his service in the German Army in the occupied territory. This document is translated into German. I need not read it. However, I would like the witness Von Schirach to familiarize himself with this document. Did you read this document? I am asking you this now, Witness, have you read that document?


27 May 46

VON SCHIRACH: Yes, I have read the document. This man Knittel who is testifying here was not a member of the Hitler Youth, but belonged either to the Labor Service or to a unit of the Army. Earlier in his life, just like all the other young Germans, he had been a member of the Hitler Youth. He states that; but in this case he was acting as a member of some unit of the Armed Forces, not as a member of the Hitler Youth. The entire testimony seems to be of little credibility. For example, he mentions a Hitler Youth Party...

GEN. ALEXANDROV: Have you read all the testimony that is given there'


GEN. ALEXANDROV: Have you read all this testimony?


GEN. ALEXANDROV: In connection with this, do you admit that participation of German youth in similar atrocities was the effect of the special education and preparation of the Hitler Youth?

VON SCHIRACH: No, I do not admit that.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: I have two more questions, and that will be all. Up to what time did you hold the post of Reichsstatthalter of Vienna and Reichsleiter of Youth Education?

VON SCHIRACH: I was head of Youth Education from 1931 and Reich Governor of the city of Vienna since 1940.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: I am interested in knowing to what date, to what moment?

VON SCHIRACH: I held both of these offices until the collapse.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: You were telling here in detail about your break with Hitler in 1943. You stated that from that time on you were politically dead. However, you continued to hold your posts to the very end. Therefore your break with Hitler was only theoretical, and in effect entailed no consequences for you. Is that correct?

VON SCHIRACH: That is wrong. I described the consequences which it had for me in my statement either on Thursday or Friday, and I also mentioned at that time that up to the very last moment I kept my oath which I had given to Hitler as Youth Leader, as an official, and as an officer.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: I have no more questions, Mr. President.

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, in order to expedite the proceedings, I should like to put two brief questions to Defendant Von Schirach.


27 May 46

The first question, Witness: In the course of the cross-examination you were asked whether you gave the order to hold Vienna until the very last moment and to defend the city to the last man. As far as I remember, you answered that question in the negative. Now, I am interested in knowing in this connection what orders you gave to your subordinates during the last days in Vienna- I mean to the Deputy Gauleiter Scharizerand the then Mayor Blaschke?

VON SCHIRACH: The order for the defense of Vienna originated with Hitler. The defense of Vienna was a matter for the military authorities, that is, the commandant of the city of Vienna, the military commander who was in charge of the 6th SS Panzer Division....

DR. SAUTER: What was his name?

VON SCHIRACH: Sepp Dietrich, and the officer commanding the Army Group South, Generaloberst Rendulic.

DR. SAUTER: Did they give the orders?

VON SCHIRACH: In carrying out the order which Hitler had given them regarding the defense of Vienna, they defended Vienna.

DR. SAUTER: What orders did you, Witness, give your subordinates in this connection?

VON SCHIRACH: For the defense of Vienna I gave only such orders as related to the Volkssturm, or those dealing with the food supply of the city and similar matters with which I was charged. I personally had nothing to do with the actual defense of the city. For even the work of destruction which was necessary in the course of the military defense of the city is to be traced back to orders which originated from the Fuehrer's headquarters and had been transmitted to the officer commanding the Army group, and to the city commandant.

DR. SAUTER: My second question, Witness: In your crossexamination you were questioned about Document 3763-PS. This is a document which deals with the songs of youth, into which the Prosecution seems to read a different attitude from the one you set forth. Do you wish to supplement your testimony on this point?

VON SCHIRACH: Yes, I must supplement it briefly..

DR. SAUTER: Please do.

VON SCHIRACH: The Prosecution accuses me concerning a certain song, a song which begins, "We are the black swarms of Geyer, hey, ho"; the chorus of which goes, "Spear them, spike them, put the red cock on the cloister roof," and one verse runs, "We will cry to Him on high that we want to kill the priest."


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This is a Christian song.

DR. SAUTER: How is that?

VON SCHIRACH: This can be seen in the fourth and fifth verses. It is the song of the Protestant peasants under the leadership of Florian Geyer.

The fourth verse goes: "No castle, abbey, and monastery matters. Nothing but the Holy Scripture is of value to us." The next verse goes: "We want the same law from prince down to peasant."

Protestantism, too, was once a revolution. The rebel peasants sang this song; and it may serve as an example, this song of the 16th century, like some of the songs of the French revolution. This song may be used as an example to show how, in the beginning, revolutions are radical rather than tolerant.

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, with this point I should like to conclude my direct examination of the Defendant Von Schirach. Thank you very much. I have no further questions.

THE PRESIDENT: Who were your principal assistants in your office at Vienna?

VON SCHIRACH: First of all, the chief of my Central Office, Hoepken; secondly, the Regierungsprasident Dr. Dellbrugge; thirdly, the Mayor, Blaschke; and fourthly, the Deputy Gauleiter, Scharizer. They were my chief collaborators.

THE PRESIDENT: That makes four, does it?


THE PRESIDENT: And did they occupy the whole of their time working for you in your office?

VON SCHIRACH: Not all of them. The Deputy Gauleiter had already been functioning under my predecessor, Burckel. Mayor Blaschke, as far as I recall, first became mayor in 1943. His predecessor as mayor was a Herr Jung. The District President, Dr. Dellbrugge, assumed his office in 1940, after my arrival in Vienna. He was sent to me from the Reich.

THE PRESIDENT: Well then, from the time that you took over the office in Vienna these four men were working for you, is that right?

VON SCHIRACH: Yes. I should like to mention also that the head of the Central Office, Hoopken, was first of all active under me as adjutant and assumed his position as chief only when the former chief of this office, Obergebietsfuehrer Muller, lost his life in an air raid.

THE PRESIDENT: Which of the four was it who initialed those weekly reports which were received in your office?


27 May 46

VON SCHIRACH: That was the District President, Dr. Dellbrugge.

THE PRESIDENT: Dellbrugge?


THE PRESIDENT: And at the time that he received them he was working in your office as one of your principal assistants?

VON SCHIRACH: He was my deputy in the State Administration.

THE PRESIDENT: That was your office?

VON SCHIRACH: That was one of my offices.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, one department in your office?

VON SCHIRACH: Yes. May I add, by way of explanation, that there were various branches: The State Administration, the Municipal Administration, the Party Management and the Reich Defense Commissariat. The Reich Defense Commissariat and the State Administration were combined as far as their representation was concerned. Everything was co-ordinated in the Central Office.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, in which department was this principal assistant who initialed these documents? Which department was he head of?

VON SCHIRACH: He held a key position in the office of the Reichsstatthalter as Chief of the State Administration.

THE PRESIDENT: Civil administration?

VON SCHIRACH: Yes, Civil State Administration.

THE PRESIDENT: Was he the Deputy Reich Defense Commissioner?


THE PRESIDENT: And you were the Reich Defense Commissioner for the Military District Number XVII, were you not?


THE PRESIDENT: And he was your deputy in that military district?


THE PRESIDENT: He received and initialed those reports in that office, did he not?


THE PRESIDENT: The defendant can return to the dock.

[The Defendant Von Schirach left the stand.]

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, with your permission I should like to call to the witness box the witness Lauterbacher.


27 May 46

[The witness Lauterbacher took the stand.]

THE PRESIDENT: Will you state your lull name?

HARTMANN LAUTERBACHER (Witness): Hartmann Lauterbacher.

THE PRESIDENT: Is that your full name?

LAUTERBACHER: Lauterbacher.

THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me: I swear

by God-the Almighty and Omniscient-that I will speak the pure truth-and will withhold and add nothing.

[The witness repeated the oath.]

THE PRESIDENT: Will you sit down.

DR. SAUTER: Herr Lauterbacher, I have already discussed this matter with you in the prison; is that right?


DR. SAUTER: Please pause after each question before you answer so that the interpreters may keep up.


DR. SAUTER: When were you born?

LAUTERBACHER: On 24 May 1909.

DR. SAUTER: 1909?


DR. SAUTER: Are you married?


DR. SAUTER: You have three children?


DR. SAUTER: What is your profession?


DR. SAUTER: Retail druggist?


DR. SAUTER: You are in an American prison?

LAUTERBACHER: In an English prison.

DR. SAUTER: Since when?

LAUTERBACHER: Since 29 May 1945.

DR. SAUTER: Have you been interrogated by the Prosecution on this matter?


DR. SAUTER: When did you become an official, that is to say, a paid employee of the Hitler Youth?


27 May 46

LAUTERBACHER: I became a paid employee of the Hitler Youth when appointed District Leader (GebietsFuehrer) of the Westphalia Lower Rhine area.

DR. SAUTER: And when was that?

LAUTERBACHER: In April 1932.

DR. SAUTER: April 1932. That was at the age of 23?

LAUTERBACHER Yes, at the age of 23.

DR. SAUTER: Before then had you been a member of the HJ? LAUTERBACHER. Yes I was.

DR. SAUTER: Slowly, please, and always wait until the question has been completed before you answer.


DR. SAUTER: I was asking you if you were already a member of the Hitler Youth when you took up your paid appointment in the year 1932.

LAUTERBACHER: Yes. When I was 13 years old, in the year 1922, I joined what was then known as the National Socialist Youth Organization. Then, when I was 18 years old, in the year 1927, I accepted the duties of an Unterfuehrer in my home province of the Tyrol . . .

DR. SAUTER: And officially you were . . .

LAUTERBACHER: . . . then I worked in an honorary capacity in Brunswick from 1929 until 1932; and later on I had a paid appointment.

DR. SAUTER: That is to say from 1932?


DR. SAUTER: What was your status in the year 1932? What position did you get then?

LAUTERBACHER: In the year 1932 I was entrusted with the leadership of the area then known as Westphalia-Lower Rhine.

DR. SAUTER: When were you assigned to the Defendant Von Schirach?

LAUTERBACHER: On 22 May 1934.

DR. SAUTER: What was your position under him?

LAUTERBACHER: Stabsfuehrer.

DR. SAUTER: How long did you remain a Stabsfuehrer?

LAUTERBACHER: Until August 1940.

DR. SAUTER: I suppose until the time he resigned his of lice as Reich Youth Leader?


27 May 46


DR. SAUTER: When you took up your paid appointment with the HJ, had you already served with the Army?


DR. SAUTER: Then you had not been an officer?


DR. SAUTER: You told us, I believe, that since 1934 you had been Stabsfuehrer of the Reich Youth Leadership. What tasks did the Stabsfuehrer of the Reich Youth Leadership have? Please tell us briefly, so we may have an idea of what your jurisdiction was

LAUTERBACHER: As the title of Stabsfuehrer indicates, I was in the first place the chief of the staff of the Reich Youth Leadership. As such, I had the task of dealing with the general directives of the Reich Youth Leader, particularly those concerning the Hitler Youth offices and regions insofar as the Youth Leader did not do that himself. I had to co-ordinate the various departments of the Reich Youth Leadership and in particular to deal with matters of an organizational and personal nature.

Furthermore, in the years 1935 to 1939 I made a number of journeys abroad at Von Schirach's request.

DR. SAUTER: Who was the deputy of the Reich Youth Leader when he could not act personally?

LAUTERBACHER: I was his deputy on occasions when he was prevented from acting personally.

DR. SAUTER: Then apparently you were the first man in the Reich Youth Leadership after Schirach?


DR. SAUTER: Were your relations with Von Schirach purely official, or were you friends as well?

LAUTERBACHER: Our association was not limited only to official matters; we were also personal friends, and so our personal relationship was not interrupted by Schirach's appointment in Vienna.

DR. SAUTER: Do you believe, Herr Lauterbacher-regarding this friendly relationship that you had with Von Schirach-that he concealed certain things from you; or are you of the conviction that so far as official matters were concerned he had no secrets from you?

LAUTERBACHER: I always have been, and still am today, convinced of the fact that Von Schirach made all his intentions and educational measures known to me.

DR. SAUTER: So he kept nothing from you?


27 May 46

LAUTERBACHER: No, he kept nothing from me. If Schirach had discussions with Adolf Hitler during the earlier years he always informed me immediately afterwards.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, in the year 1939 the second World War broke out. Did the Defendant Von Schirach, in the last few years prior to the outbreak of the World War, have any discussions with you in which he expressed the view that youth should be educated for war-in other words-that in educating youth the necessities and requirements of future war must be taken into account? What transpired on this point between you and Von Schirach before the war?

LAUTERBACHER: The possibility of war was never discussed. Occasionally I attended Party rallies in the company of Von Schirach; and on these occasions, when Adolf Hitler delivered a speech, I only-on the occasion of these rallies I had the definite and unalterable impression that Adolf Hitler and the National Socialist Reich were determined to maintain peace and to allow matters to follow a peaceful course. That is why it never occurred to me that youth should be trained specifically for war.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, in your capacity as Stabsfuehrer of the Reich Youth Leadership, did you have any knowledge about the mail as a whole which either came to Schirach or was dispatched by him?

LAUTERBACHER: I always saw all the official mail.

DR. SAUTER: In the mail which reached Schirach in his of lice, did you see anything about directives for the Reich Youth Leadership received from Hitler, from the Party leadership, from the OKW, or from any other agency, either State or Party, regarding the preparations for war?

LAUTERBACHER: No, neither open nor camouflaged.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, we have already heard about the main functions of youth education in the course of the last few days. I do not believe, Mr. President, that I need go into these subjects in detail. The witness is the person best qualified to give us information, but I think I may take the subject of youth education as clarified.

THE PRESIDENT: I think so. I think the facts about it have been sufficiently stated. ~

DR. SAUTER: Thank you. Then I can pass on to another subject immediately.

[Turning to the witness.] You said that you had not been a soldier. Did not Schirach attach importance to the inclusion among his collaborators of a certain number of officers, or at least of men


27 May 46

who had served their term of military service and who might be enrolled as instructors? Please be brief.

LAUTERBACHER: No, at first, that is, during the early years of the period of development, Von Schirach rejected officers as youth leaders on ideological and educational grounds. The aim and mission of the Hitler Youth were those of a socialist community and of a socialist state; and the old type of officer of the period, the representative of a reactionary epoch, would have been absolutely incompatible.

DR. SAUTER: Absolutely incompatible? Do you mean with the . . .

LAUTERBACHER: With the principles of education which Schirach had laid down for the Hitler Youth.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, have you any idea whether Schirach always rejected the proposal, or to put it the other way round, do you know whether he agreed when any military authorities tried to influence the character of the Youth Leadership? Perhaps you could also answer this point briefly.

LAUTERBACHER: Even in 1933 attempts were made to introduce officers into the Hitler Youth as leaders. As far as my information goes, two officers had been given appointments in the Hitler Youth before my period of office as Stabsfuehrer, under more or less direct orders from Hitler. They were entirely unable to cope with youth as such; and I think I am justified in saying that their appearance-was a complete failure.

DR. SAUTER: What happened to them?

LAUTERBACHER: Schirach went to Adolf Hitler and succeeded in having these gentlemen dismissed; also through him, a directive was drawn up by Hitler which said that officers were not to hold positions in the Hitler Youth.

DR. SAUTER: Were no further attempts of the kind made to force officers from somewhere or other upon him?

LAUTERBACHER: Oh, yes. In 1936 and 1937, and then again in 1938, attempts were made to influence the education of the Hitler Youth through so-called liaison officers. But these attempts also failed; and up to the very end there were no officers working with the Hitler Youth who were responsible to any other authority except Schirach, apart from former Hitler Youth leaders who had served in the Army and received officers' commissions.

DR. SAUTER: If I understand you correctly, Witness, you wish to say-and please confirm whether I have understood you correctly- that Schirach rejected these attempts. Is that correct?



27 May 46

DR. SAUTER: Witness, why did the Hitler Youth wear uniform- the girls as well?

LAUTERBACHER: Uniform is perhaps not quite the correct term for the clothing worn by the members of the Hitler Youth. It was more in the nature of a national costume which was worn by members of youth organizations before the existence of the Hitler Youth, not only in Germany but in other countries as well. Moreover, Schirach was anxious that all boys and girls should, as he expressed himself, wear the dress of the socialist community.

DR. SAUTER: Of the socialist community. Does that mean a community of all-of all the boys and girls of every class of German society without any distinction?

LAUTERBACHER: Without any distinction as to descent or creed or anything else.

DR. SAUTER: Or rich or poor?


DR. SAUTER: Were the Hitler Youth in possession of weapons and were they trained in the use of military weapons? You must know that.

LAUTERBACHER: No, they were not trained in the use of military weapons during the period in which Schirach and I held office.

DR. SAUTER: Did the Hitler Youth have, in particular, tanks, armored cars, and so forth, since reference was made to the training of the young men in the so-called 'motorized Hitler Youth" in connection with the question of the special unit (Sonderformation)- tanks, armored cars?

LAUTERBACHER: No, to my knowledge the Hitler Youth never received any training in armored cars, tanks, or anything of the kind, even after Schirach's term of office. At any rate...

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, the facts stated by the defendant as to the weapons of the Hitler Youth and their formations were not cross-examined. You need not go into that. Mr. Dodd did not suggest that they had tanks.

DR. SAUTER: Thank you, Mr. President. Then I can perhaps be more brief.

I now come, Herr Lauterbacher, to the Defendant Von Schirach's attitude toward the Jewish question. Was the Hitler Youth involved in any way in the Jewish pogroms of November 1938?

LAUTERBACHER: I think I can answer your question with a definite "no."

DR. SAUTER: Herr Lauterbacher, you told me something about a speech made by the Defendant Von Schirach a few days after


27 May 46

9 November 1938, on the subject of these Jewish pogroms. Tell me when and to whom he delivered this speech and what the contents of the speech were.

LAUTERBACHER: Von Schirach was in Munich on 10 November 1938 and I was in Berlin. Schirach instructed me by telephone to tell the district leaders of the Hitler Youth that their organizations were in no circumstances to take part in these anti-Jewish demonstrations, and to call a meeting of all these leaders to hear a specific declaration on this point. This meeting took place about 15 November 1930.

DR. SAUTER: Where?

LAUTERBACHER: In Berlin. Schirach asked these district leaders to report to him and expressed his satisfaction at having in the meantime received reports to the effect that the Hitler Youth had not been involved in these excesses. He then described the said excesses in his speech. I still remember this speech extraordinarily well, for it was particularly impressive. He described these pogroms as a disgrace to our culture and as amounting to self-defamation. He said that such things might be expected of an uncivilized people but not of the German people. He went on to say that we had antagonized not only the world in general but also all decent people in Germany itself by these demonstrations. He was afraid that serious political difficulties would arise at home, as well as difficulties within the Party itself. As we know, the Party was not at all unanimous in its judgment of these happenings. A very large section of the Party members and of the Party leadership condemned these excesses.

DR. SAUTER: Please tell us more of what Schirach said at that time. I should be more interested in that.

LAUTERBACHER: Von Schirach then gave the Youth Leadership special instructions to keep out of demonstrations of this or a similar kind in the future, no matter what the circumstances might be, and condemned every use of violence on educational grounds alone. He concluded the proceedings by prohibiting the reading of the newspaper Der Sturmer by the Hitler Youth at club evenings or on any other occasions.

DR. SAUTER: On this occasion, Herr Lauterbacher, did he say anything about the needless destruction of so many cultural treasures, art treasures, property belonging to the people, et cetera, and did he not give certain instances of this?

LAUTERBACHER: Yes. As an especially glaring instance, he quoted the case of the attempt, which was at least partially carried through, to loot the Jewish firm of Bernheimer, art dealers in Munich.


27 May 46

DR. SAUTER: Munich?

LAUTERBACHER: Yes. He quoted this example to the Youth Leadership to illustrate the dangerous and irreparable inroads made on the reservoir of our culture and our cultural treasures by these demonstrations.

DR. SAUTER: Is it true that immediately after this Berlin speech about which you have just told us, the Defendant Von Schirach caused definite directives to be issued by telephone from Berlin, through your agency, to the individual Hitler Youth offices?

LAUTERBACHER: This took place as early as 10 November, the day after the Munich meeting. It had nothing to do with the district leaders' meeting, which only took place about 15 November.

DR. SAUTER: Herr Lauterbacher, I assume that, as time went on, you were present at a good many speeches made by the Defendant Von Schirach to his subleaders, or to the Hitler Youth, and that you listened to many of these speeches yourself. Did the Defendant Con Schirach engage in Jew-baiting on these or other occasions? Did he suggest that violence be used against the Jews? What was his attitude?

LAUTERBACHER: Yes; I must have listened to all the important speeches delivered by Von Schirach before the Leadership Corps of the Hitler Youth, and on the occasion of these speeches I never heard him urge the use of violence, which would in any case have been completely foreign to his nature. At any rate, I cannot recall that Von Schirach ever called upon the Youth Leadership, either directly or indirectly, to take part in acts of violence of any kind against anyone.

DR. SAUTER: What did Schirach usually talk about in delivering one of his many speeches addressed to youth? Just the main topic, briefly.

LAUTERBACHER: One must certainly differentiate between the long speeches which he delivered at public demonstrations and the speeches which he made before the leaders of the Hitler Youth.

In the speeches he addressed to the leaders he always discussed the main political and ideological tasks and the tasks of social policy, cultural policy, and professional training which he had assigned to the Hitler Youth.

DR. SAUTER: Now, we shall turn to a different topic, Herr Lauterbacher. Did Schirach cause you to leave the Church?


DR. SAUTER: Did you leave the Church?

LAUTERBACHER: I do not believe that Herr Von Schirach even knew to what religious denomination I belonged or whether I left


27 May 46

the Church or not. I left the Church in 1937 or 1938, without being influenced or forced to do so by anyone.

DR. SAUTER: Did Von Schirach urge his other collaborators to leave the Church, as far as you know?


DR. SAUTER: Did Schirach abuse Christianity or incite others to attack it on the occasion of the numerous speeches made by him, to which you have just told us that you listened?

LAUTERBACHER: On those occasions Schirach always told the youth to respect religious convictions, and characterized atheism as an evil, not only once but many times. In his speeches, Von Schirach vigorously criticized, for instance, the athletic clubs existing both before and after 1933 in connection with the various churches and demanded the unity of youth; but on these occasions he did not attack Christianity or the religious convictions of others either in public or in private.

DR. SAUTER: Herr Lauterbacher, during the time the Defendant Von Schirach was Reich Youth Leader, negotiations were pending with the Roman Catholic Church with a view to concluding a concordat, so that relations between the State and the Church would be regulated by an agreement. Do you know whether Von Schirach took part in these concordat negotiations and whether he took much trouble to effect an understanding with the Church on a basis satisfactory to both sides?

LAUTERBACHER: Yes. In 1933 and 1934 Schirach had numerous discussions with representatives of the Church, Reich Bishop Muller of the Protestant Church and the representative of the Fulda Conference of Bishops, Bishop Berning of Osnabruck. I remember that Schirach strove to draw a dividing line between their respective powers and jurisdiction on some such basis as: "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's and unto God the things which are God's."

DR. SAUTER: I have another question, Witness: Do you know whether Von Schirach actually tried to bring about an understanding between the Hitler Youth, of which he was the leader, and the youth of other countries, and can you tell us, for instance, what he did and what steps he took to that end?

LAUTERBACHER: The establishment of a cordial understanding between German youth and world youth generally was undoubtedly one of those tasks the importance of which Schirach constantly emphasized to his youth leaders, and I always had the impression that this task was, as I might almost say, his particular passion. I myself, on his orders-and perhaps I am a cardinal witness on


27 May 46

precisely this point-visited the various European countries, from 1935 onwards, at least once a year and sometimes even two or three times a year, so that I could get in touch with existing youth organizations and with organizations of combatants of the first World War, in order to establish contact with them.

DR. SAUTER: Which countries?

LAUTERBACHER: It can truthfully be said that the Hitler Youth sought contacts with all the countries of Europe; and I myself, at the direct order of Von Schirach, visited England several times. There I met the leader of the British Boy Scouts and his colleague, but also...

1~; PRESIDENT: I do not think those facts are in dispute. It is merely the inference that is to be drawn from the facts that the Prosecution will rely upon. Therefore it is not necessary for you to go into the facts again, as to the connection of the Hitler Youth with the foreign youth.

DR. SAUTER: Yes, Mr. President.

Witness, you have just heard that these facts are not in dispute. We can therefore turn to another topic. You were the Stabsfuehrer of the Hitler Youth in the Reich Youth Leadership. Do you know whether the Leadership of the Hitler Youth maintained spies or agents abroad, or whether it trained people for the so-called Fifth Column-and I take it you know what that is-in other countries, or whether it brought young people over to be trained as parachutists in Germany and then sent them back to their own countries. During your whole period of office as Stabsfuehrer, did you ever learn of anything like that?

LAUTERBACHER: The Hitler Youth did not have spies, agents, or parachutists to operate in any country in Europe. I would have been bound to learn of such a fact or such an arrangement in any circumstances.

DR. SAUTER: Even if Schirach had made such an arrangement behind your back, do you believe that you would have been bound to learn of it in any case through the channels of reports from district leaders and similar channels?

LAUTERBACHER: I would inevitably have learned of this or have observed it in these districts on some of my many official trips.

DR. SAUTER: Then, Witness, I should like to turn to another topic. The other day you told me about a certain discussion. After the Polish campaign-that would be, presumably, at the end of September or beginning of October 1939-and before the actual campaign in France you had a meeting with the Defendant Von Schirach


27 May 46

in your residence in Berlin-Dahlem, on which occasion the Defendant Von Schirach voiced his attitude to the war. Will you describe this conversation briefly to the Court?

LAUTERBACHER: Yes. Von Schirach came to see me at the end of September or beginning of October 1939. He visited me in the house which I occupied at the time in Berlin. The conversation very quickly turned to war, and Schirach said that, in his opinion, this war should have been prevented. He held the Foreign Minister of that time responsible for having given Hitler inadequate or false information. He regretted the fact that Hitler and the leading men of the State and the Party knew nothing about Europe and the world generally and had steered Germany into this war without having any idea of the consequences.

At that time he was of the opinion that if the war could not be brought to an end in the shortest possible time, we should lose it. In this connection he referred to the enormous war potential of the United States and England. He said-and I remember the expression very well-that this war was an unholy one and that if the German people were not to be plunged into disaster as a result of it, the Fuehrer must be informed of the danger which would arise for Germany if America were to intervene, either through deliveries of goods or through actual entry into the war.

We considered at the time who could inform Hitler, who, in fact, could even obtain access to him. Schirach suggested trying in some way to introduce Colin Ross into Adolf Hitler's presence. Colin Ross was to call Hitler's attention to the threatening catastrophe and to inform Hitler of the facts. This was to be done outside the competency of the Foreign Minister and without the Foreign Minister being present. At that time Colin Ross was not yet in Germany. I remember that when he returned he was introduced into Hitler's presence by way of Schirach.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, will you tell us more about the discussion which you mentioned as having taken place in 1939. I should like you to answer this question: How did he come to choose Dr. Colin Ross in particular? How did you happen to think of him?

LAUTERBACHER: I have already mentioned that the leaders of the National Socialist State and of the Party were almost totally lacking in knowledge of the world and foreign countries generally, and had consequently hit upon this man, who had seen so much of the world. Colin Ross had occasionally attended meetings of the Hitler Youth Leaders before 1939 and had addressed them...

DR. SAUTER: What about?

LAUTERBACHER: . . . and thus he was known to Schirach and the Hitler Youth.


27 May 46

DR. SAUTER: What were the topics he discussed before the Hitler Youth?

LAUTERBACHER: Colin Ross spoke of his experiences in every continent.

DR. SAUTER: How did Colin Ross become known to the Hitler Youth? On this occasion did you also speak of whether an attempt should be made to find a solution of the Jewish problem, so that it would be easier to reach an understanding with other countries, and if so, on what basis?

LAUTERBACHER: Yes. In the course of this conversation Schirach referred to the excesses of 9 November 1938 and to the speech he made immediately afterwards, and said that in the circumstances it would naturally be extremely difficult to start discussions with America; that we might have to try beforehand- if circumstances permitted-and he wished to suggest this to Hitler during an interview...

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, the Tribunal does not think it is really sufficiently important to go into Schirach's private discussions with this witness. If he can say anything as to what Schirach did, it may be different, but now the witness is simply reciting the discussions which he had with Schirach, nothing more than private discussion.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, what steps did Schirach actually take towards peace, or to shorten the war, as a result of these discussions with you? Did he take any steps; and what were these steps?

LAUTERBACHER: Yes, as he told me at a later discussion, Schirach made use of every opportunity at the beginning of the war to convince Hitler of the need for discussions with America, and with this purpose in view, he actually brought Colin Ross to Hitler, as he told me later. Colin Ross was with Hitler for several hours. When Colin Ross visited me at Hanover he told me about this discussion and on this occasion he said that Hitler was very thoughtful. He did say also, however, that a second discussion which had been planned with Hitler had not materialized, for, according to his version, the Foreign Office had protested against this kind of information.

THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn now.

[A recess was taken.]

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, the Tribunal thrills that this witness is dealing in great detail with matters which are of very


27 May 46

little importance and the Tribunal wishes you to bring his attention to something which is of real importance.

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I have in any case only one more question.

One last question, Witness. You have not been with Schirach since 1940. I believe you became a Gauleiter.


DR. SAUTER: Schirach went to Vienna. But in 1943 you again had a long talk with him, mainly about why Schirach did not resign from his post. My reason for putting this question to you is that one member of the Prosecution has already discussed the question today. Will you tell us briefly what reasons Schirach gave at the time for retaining his office or why he did not resign, and what his views on the war were in 1943-at that time, I mean?

LAUTERBACHER: In March 1943, when I made an unofficial visit to Vienna, a very long conversation took place between Von Schirach and myself. At that time, Von Schirach talked very pessimistically about the prospects of the war and told me that we should soon be fighting outside Vienna, in the Alps and along the Rhine. On that occasion he said that he had not been able to see Adolf Hitler for a very long time; that he had had no further opportunity of reporting to him, as had formerly been the case; and that the Chief of the Party Chancellery, Bormann, had consistently prevented him from seeing the Fuehrer and talking to him alone; and that he therefore no longer had any opportunity whatsoever of discussing Viennese questions or general questions with Hitler. In this connection he also stated that Bormann came to him with objections and complaints every day, cancelling orders and directives he had issued in his capacity of Gauleiter in Vienna, and that in view of all this, it was no longer possible for him to remain in office and to shoulder the responsibility.

At a later stage of that conversation, in the course of which we considered all kinds of possibilities, he said that, as he had sworn an oath of allegiance to Hitler, he felt bound to remain in office whatever happened and that, above all, he could not take the responsibility in the present military situation for abandoning the population over which he had been appointed Gauleiter.

He saw the catastrophe coming but said that even his resignation or any action that he might take would not have any influence on the leaders of the State or on Hitler himself and that he would, therefore, remain true to his oath, as a soldier would, and retain his appointment.

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, that concludes my examination of this witness.


27 May 46

THE PRESIDENT: Does any other defense counsel want to ask him any questions?

DR. SERVATIUS: Witness, were you Gauleiter in Hanover from 1940?

LAUTERBACHER: Yes, from December 1940.

DR. SERVATIUS: You were also Plenipotentiary for Labor in that capacity?


DR. SERVATIUS: Were there many foreign laborers in your Gau?

LAUTERBACHER: Yes, there were a great many foreign laborers in my district. This was mainly due to the Hermann Goering Works, which had been established near Brunswick.

DR. SERVATIUS: Did you have to look after them?

LAUTERBACHER: Yes, my assignments as Plenipotentiary for Labor were confined to looking after foreign civilian workers.

DR. SERVATIUS: Did you receive instructions from Sauckel on that point?

LAUTERBACHER: I, like all other Gauleiter of the NSDAP, constantly received instructions from Sauckel with regard to the recruitment of labor; that is to say, regarding the welfare of these civilian workers.

DR. SERVATIUS: What type of instructions were they?

LAUTERBACHER: The instructions which I received as Gauleiter consisted almost exclusively of repeated demands to do everything to satisfy the foreign workers in matters of accommodation, food, clothing, and cultural welfare.

DR. SERVATIUS: Was that carried out in practice?

LAUTERBACHER: It was naturally carried out within the limits of existing possibilities.

DR. SERVATIUS: Did you inspect camps or factories where these workers were employed?

LAUTERBACHER: Yes, I myself inspected such camps and especially such factories on my official trips. Apart from that I had, as my Gau supervisor of the German Labor Front, a man who assisted me in this task on such occasions.

DR. SERVATIUS: Did you or your Gau supervisor discover the existence of shocking conditions?

LAUTERBACHER: Yes. After the air raids from which Hanover and Brunswick suffered particularly badly from 1943 onwards, I


27 May 46

found conditions in foreign civilian labor camps-just as I did in the living quarters of German people-to be what I would call, perhaps not shocking, but certainly very serious; and after that I tried as far as possible to have these destroyed dwellings repaired, for instance, or to have new ones built.

DR. SERVATIUS: Did you see any abuses for which these industrial enterprises of the supervisory agencies were directly responsible?

LAUTERBACHER: Yes, I do remember two such cases.

Several firms in Hanover had formed a kind of industrial association-a kind of union-and had established a camp for their foreign civilian workers. The trustees of these firms were responsible for this camp. One day the Gau supervisor of the German Labor Front reported to me that living conditions did not comply with instructions received and asked my permission to intervene, that is to say, to be allowed to assume responsibility through the German Labor Front for that collective camp. I gave him this assignment; and sometime afterwards he reported that these difficulties had been overcome.

The Hermann Goering Works constitute another example of this kind. Since I am speaking under oath here, I must mention the fact that that firm disregarded Sauckel's instructions in many respects. On one occasion they recruited workers independently, outside the jurisdiction of the labor administration through their branches in the Ukraine and other countries. These laborers came to Watenstedt, in the area supervised by the Executive Board of the Party, outside the quota fixed by the Plenipotentiary for Labor, and consequently outside of his jurisdiction.

I myself had very considerable difficulty in obtaining entry to the works and the camp. For although Gauleiter and Plenipotentiary, I was not by any means in a position simply to. . .

THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute. What has this got to do with the Defendant Sauckel?

DR. SERVATIUS: I asked him about any abuses which he had found, for as plenipotentiary for the recruitment of foreign workers it was his duty to ascertain where such bad conditions existed and to report them so that they would finally be brought to Sauckel's notice. He has digressed rather widely and has just been describing the Hermann Goering Works.

THE PRESIDENT: You should stop him, Dr. Servatius. You know the question you were asking.

DR. SERVATIUS: Witness, did you discover the existence of abuses in the camp?


27 May 46

LAUTERBACHER: I was unable to enter the camp, because entry was forbidden.

DR. SERVATIUS: Did Sauckel himself address the workers in your Gau?

LAUTERBACHER No, not during my period of office. But he frequently sent representatives.

DR. SERVATIUS: I have now got some questions to put on behalf of the political leaders whom I represent.

Did you receive special instructions from the Fuehrer on your appointment as Gauleiter?

LAUTERBACHER: No. When I was appointed Gauleiter I was merely introduced by Herr Hess as Gauleiter, during an assembly of Gauleiter. But I received no special instructions on the occasion of that meeting, and during my...

THE PRESIDENT: Witness, the answer was "no" and you did not need to add to it at all.

DR. SERVATIUS: Did you talk to the Fuehrer later on? Did you receive special or secret instructions?

LAUTERBACHER: I only saw the Fuehrer now and again at Gauleiter meetings and I never had any official discussions with him.

DR. SERVATIUS: Do you know anything about the activities of block leaders? In particular, I want to ask you: Were they used as spies?


DR. SERVATlUS: But there seems to be ~ widespread belief that in fact block leaders did act as spies and informers and that has been brought up by the Prosecution. Perhaps the SD used block leaders for that purpose?

LAUTERBACHER: The SD had its own agents who were not known to the Party. At any rate, the block leaders had no instructions to work for the SD.

DR. SERVATIUS: Was no card index kept of Party opponents?

LAUTERBACHER: Not in the Party organizations. As far as I know this card index was kept by the Secret Police, as was made known in connection with the plot of 20 July 1944. '

DR. SERVATIUS: Did the Party use agents for spying who may not have been block leaders but who worked for you in your capacity of Gauleiter?


DR. SERVATIUS: I have no further questions.

MR. DODD: When did you join the SS, Witness?


27 May 46

LAUTERBACHER: I was made an SS Brigadier General on 2 August 1940, on the occasion of my appointment as Deputy Gauleiter.

MR. DODD: I did not hear your answer as to when you first joined the SS. Would you repeat it, please?

LAUTERBACHER: On 2 August 1940.

MR. DODD: You had not belonged before that date to the organization at all?

LAUTERBACHER: I was not a member of the SS before that date; but I served in the Waffen-SS as a soldier, from 26 May 1940 to September 1940.

MR. DODD: And then you later became an SS Obergruppenfuehrer, did you not?

LAUTERBACHER: On 20 April 1944.

MR. DODD: And when did you join the staff of Himmler?

LAUTERBACHER: I was never a member of Himmler's staff.

MR. DODD: Did you not join it in January of 1944, or what would you say that you did join in the Reichsfuehrer SS Organization? Perhaps I have used the wrong term "staff." There is some other name for it. Were you not affiliated in some way with Himmler?

LAUTERBACHER: No, I never had any SS assignments.

MR. DODD: Did you have any connection with the Reichsfuehrer SS from January 1944 on?

LAUTERBACHER: In October 1944 the Reichsfuehrer SS had gone in his special train to Bad Pyrmont, on the occasion of a meeting of West German Gauleiter and Higher SS and Police Leaders. I had orders to be present at that function; and in the course of the meeting I had a talk with him.

MR. DODD: That is not what I asked; but I will pass it. Did you become an SA Obergruppenfuehrer in 1944, as well as SS Obergruppenfuehrer?

LAUTERBACHER: I became an SA Obergruppenfuehrer, I think, in 1944 or 1943.

MR. DODD: You were also a member of the Reichstag in 1936, were yore not?


MR. DODD: And a member of the Party, I guess you said, since 1927; is that right?


MR. DODD: And a member of the Hitler Youth, or NSDAP, since 1923?


27 May 46

LAUTERBACHER: I joined the Hitler Youth in 1927. The Hitler Youth was not established until 1927.

MR. DODD: Well, whenever it was, the youth organization of the Party, that is what I mean. How many people did you have hanged publicly while you were the Gauleiter up in Hanover?

LAUTERBACHER: I did not understand the question.

MR. DODD: I said: How many people did you have hanged publicly while you were the Gauleiter up in Hanover?

LAUTERBACHER: I never hanged anyone publicly.

MR. DODD: Are you sure about that?


MR. DODD: How many people did you send to concentration camps?

LAUTERBACHER: I might have handed over 5 or 10 persons to ordinary courts for violating war economy regulations. And in one case which I remember particularly well, there were two people who refused...

MR. DODD: Well, I do not care about the details: Just tell me how many you sent.

LAUTERBACHER: There were two. I do not know if they were sent to concentration camps, because I myself could not intern them. The internment was decided in Berlin.

MR. DODD: Do you know a man by the name of Huck, H-u-c-k, Heinrich Huck?

LAUTERBACHER: Huck-no. At the moment I cannot remember that name.

MR. DODD: The police commissar under your Gau, or in your Gau?

LAUTERBACHER: No, I do not know him.

MR. DODD: I want to ask: Did you not have a foreign worker from one of the eastern countries hanged, publicly hanged in the market square, and to remain there a whole day, at one time, while you were the Gauleiter up there?

LAUTERBACHER: No. Where is that supposed to have happened?

MR. DODD: It is supposed to have happened in Hildesheim.


MR. DODD: In March of 1945, just before the war ended.

LAUTERBACHER: No. That is unknown to me. I never gave any such instructions.


27 May 46

MR. DODD: Did you order 400 or 500 prisoners poisoned or shot just before the city was taken by an Allied army?

LAUTERBACHER: No, that was put to me in London, and I think I cleared up the matter.

MR. DODD: You know what I am talking about, then?

LAUTERBACHER: Yes, the penitentiary at Hameln.

MR. DODD: You know that your Kreisleiter says that you ordered them poisoned with either prussic acid or strychnine, or else they were to be shot?

You know about that, do you not?

LAUTERBACHER: I was told about that in London.

MR. DODD: And not only does your Kreisleiter say that but Richard Rother, who was an inspector at the prison at Hameln, confirms that the order was passed on, that either they were to be poisoned or shot; do you know about that as well?

LAUTERBACHER: I never gave any such order.

MR. DODD: I am asking you if you know that these people associated with you have sworn under oath that you did. You have seen these affidavits, have you not?

LAUTERBACHER: I was told of it in London; but I was also told that the inmates of that penitentiary were neither poisoned nor shot, but sent back.

MR. DODD: Yes, they were, but not because of you, but because your people refused to carry out your orders, is not that so?

LAUTERBACHER: I know nothing about that, because I was no longer in Hameln and no longer a Gauleiter.

MR. DODD: You have seen these affidavits, so I do not think there is any need to hand them to you, but I am going to offer them in evidence.

LAUTERBACHER: I received the statement of the commissioned Kreisleiter, Dr. Kramer, in London, and I replied to it.

MR. DODD: Very well. You know what he says, then?

I offer this D-861 as Exhibit USA-874, Mr. President. It is a document consisting of 7 affidavits from persons associated with this witness when he was the Gauleiter, and having to do with his conduct while he was Gauleiter there.

THE PRESIDENT: How do you suggest that that evidence is relevant?

MR. DODD: I offer them in relation to this man's credibility, or rather lack of it. I do not think that they have anything to do directly with the case, other than they show the kind of individual


27 May 46

he is, as we claim, and that the Tribunal should have this information before it when it considers the weight it will give to his testimony.

I have also just been reminded by my friend, Mr. Elwyn Jones, that of course it would have a bearing on the issue of the Leadership Corps of the Nazi Party, of which he is a member. That had not occurred to me, however. However, I do wish to claim it as a ground, also, for this document.

THE PRESIDENT: Where are the people who made these affidavits?

MR. DODD: Mr. President, I will have to inquire. I do not know. They are in custody, some of them at least, in the British zone here in Germany.

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, you have just inquired where these people are who made these affidavits. Perhaps I can assist you in clarifying these questions. This Josef Kramer, whom the Prosecution have just quoted as the leading witness against the witness Lauterbacher, was sentenced to 7 years' imprisonment by an English court some 8 or 10 days ago, and this for the very reason which the prosecutor has just mentioned. Herr Lauterbacher knows nothing about this matter, but quite accidentally I read a report of this trial in a German newspaper and I have the report here. In that article, dated 2 May of this year, it is stated that the former Kreisleiter of Hameln, Dr. Josef Kramer, was sentenced by the court of the 5th British Division to 7 years' imprisonment. I quote from that article:

"Upon the approach of the Allied troops Kramer had given the order to liquidate the inmates of the penitentiary at Hameln. 'No dangerous prisoner and no foreigner is to be allowed to fall into the hands of the enemy,' was his order. 'They must all be poisoned with prussic acid, or, if that is not possible, they will have to be shot.' "

That was the wording of the order given by ex-Kreisleiter Josef Kramer; and he is now being used as a witness against my witness here. The report goes on to say that officials at the penitentiary, who appeared as witnesses, stated that in spite of this order from Dr. Kramer they had refused to liquidate the prisoners. The rest is of no interest but I thought that perhaps it might be important for the Tribunal, when dealing with this question, to see from a document how this former Kreisleiter behaved in reality. If you are interested, Mr. President, the newspaper clipping, although it is in German, can be admitted to you at once.

MR. DODD: May I say, Mr. President, that perfectly substantiates the document; that is, Kramer says in here that is what he did, that


27 May 46

he passed orders on but that he got them from this man. If anything, it supports us. It does not hurt us one whit insofar as the value of this document is concerned.

In looking them over, I think it is perhaps best if I only offer the first one and the last one. There are some others in this group that are not particularly helpful, I expect, for the Court. I shall withdraw all but the first and last and offer only the affidavit of Kramer and the affidavit of Huck.

THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, the Tribunal does not think that these documents ought to be admitted. In the first place, so far as the credit of the particular witness is concerned, they do not think that his answers on questions of credit ought to be challenged by other evidence. So far as the Leadership Corps is concerned, they think that these documents are only evidence of one individual crime.

MR. DODD: Very well, Mr. President.

Witness, I understood you to say that you never heard the Defendant Von Schirach say anything really derogatory of the Jewish people, and, on the contrary, you heard him speak out quite openly after the events of 9 November 1938. Did I understand you correctly?

LAUTERBACHER: Yes, he criticized the atrocities in no uncertain terms at the meeting of Gauleiters. He had no doubt that...

MR. DODD: Do not go all through it again. I just wanted to be sure that I understood you correctly.

I suppose you read the Hitler Youth yearbook for the year 1938, as the Deputy to the Reich Leader.

LAUTERBACHER: At the moment I do not remember this book. If I could have a look at it?

MR. DODD: Of course I do not expect you to. I merely wanted to ascertain that you did read it. I suppose you always read your yearbook?


MR. DODD: What, you did not read it?

LAUTERBACHER: I cannot remember, no.

MR. DODD: Well, would it not be customary for you to read the yearbook? Let us put it that way.

LAUTERBACHER: The yearbook was compiled by the Press Department and I had no influence on the details of the journalistic make-up of our newspapers, periodicals or yearbooks. I do not remember this book, at least as far as it concerns demands for anti-Semitic atrocities, or a policy of force.


27 May 46

MR. DODD: Well, I will show it to you in any event and call your attention to an article in the yearbook concerning the Jewish people. Do you know what I refer to? Where they were charged with having spilled the blood of millions of dead in history. That was put out, I assume, after the brave statements by the defendant in November of 1938, since it is for the whole year of 1938. You will find the article that I refer to on Page 192.


MR. DODD: Have you seen that article before?

LAUTERBACHER: No. That yearbook had no official character; it was a private enterprise on the part of the publishers.

MR. DODD: Now, just a minute. What do you mean, "it had no official character"? It was the yearbook of the Hitler Youth, was it not?

LAUTERBACHER: This yearbook was not officially edited by the Hitler Youth or by the Party. I never saw it until after it was published.

MR. DODD: It was published by the Central Publishing House of the NSDAP, was it not?

LAUTERBACHER: Yes, that is correct; I see that.

MR. DODD: It was called The Yearbook of the Hitler Youth, and you put it out for a good many years consecutively, did you not? I do not mean you personally, but I mean the Party and the Hitler Youth.

LAUTERBACHER: No. This yearbook was compiled and published every year by the gentleman mentioned there, or by others, as the case might be.

MR. DODD: I know that. I am simply trying to establish this, that this was the yearbook of the Hitler Youth and the only one that was put out, and it was put out each year. Now is that not so?

LAUTERBACHER: This book appeared every year, but I repeat again that it had no official character, nor do I believe that...

MR. DODD: Well, what would you say would give it an official character?

LAUTERBACHER: If it said here, "Published by the Reich Youth Leader's Office," it would have an official character.

MR. DODD: And the fact that it said, "Published by the Central Publishing House of the NSDAP" would not give it one, is that it?

LAUTERBACHER: Certainly not.

MR. DODD: You did not put out any other publications in the nature of a yearbook did you, except this one?


27 May 46

LAUTERBACHER: A calendar was published every year.

MR. DODD: Well, I am certainly not talking about a calendar; I am talking about a report or a book


MR. DODD: And you are still telling this Tribunal that this was not the yearbook of the Hitler Youth and the only one that was published in Germany?

LAUTERBACHER: I repeat that this yearbook did not have any official character.

MR. DODD: Well, after having read that quotation, do you still think that Schirach, as leader of the Reich Youth, was not actively speaking about the Jews in a derogatory sort of way, or that talk of this kind was not going on under his leadership?

LAUTERBACHER: Von Schirach never left any doubt regarding his anti-Semitic attitude as long as he was Reich Youth Leader.

MR. DODD: Do you know the speech he made in 1942 when he took credit for deporting the Jews from Vienna? Are you familiar with that speech?

LAUTERBACHER: No, I do not know that speech. During that time I was in Hanover, and Schirach was in Vienna.

MR. DODD: Yes. He was a fellow Gauleiter at that time.

Did you ever get any SS reports on what was happening to the Jews in the East?

LAUTERBACHER: Never. I never had access to SS reports, SS circulars, or orders.

MR. DODD: Did you deport any Jews from your Gau?

LAUTERBACHER: When I came to the Gau in December 1940, the Jews had already emigrated.

MR. DODD: They were already out by the time you got there?


MR. DODD: Did you ever hear of Gauleiters getting reports from Heydrich or from Himmler about what was happening to the Jews in the East? Did any of your fellow Gauleiter ever tell you that they got reports regularly, say by the month or by the week?

LAUTERBACHER: No. Himmler's reports were no more accessible to the Gauleiter than they were to the honorary leaders of the SS. As Obergruppenfuehrer of the SS I never received a report or an instruction from Himmler.

MR. DODD: Those Himmler reports were handled pretty carefully, were they not?


27 May 46

I am now asking you-as an SS Obergruppenfuehrer I suppose you know something about it-were those reports handled very carefully, those Himmler and Heydrich reports?

LAUTERBACHER: As an SS Obergruppenfuehrer I never received any of Himmler's reports, and I know that Himmler sent all reports dealing with confidential or internal SS matters only to SS and Police, that is, SS leaders in the service of the SS, but never to the honorary leaders.

MR. DODD: Now, what I really asked you was whether or not the reports, when they were sent out, were very carefully handled. Do you know the answer to that?

LAUTERBACHER: I do not know. I do not know how these reports were handled.

MR. DODD: What was Heydrich's reputation, so far as you were concerned, in 1942? Did you think very well of him or did you think very poorly of him before he was killed?

LAUTERBACHER: I only knew Heydrich from meeting him a few times in the Reich Youth Leader's Office, and I had a good impression of him personally. I am forced to have a different opinion of him now; but only because I now know of his measures.

MR. DODD: What was he doing in the Reich Youth Leader's Office the few times that you met him? What business did he have there?

LAUTERBACHER: He had intervened on his own initiative and through his own agencies in cases of homosexuality. Schirach forbade that and told him that these matters too were first of all subject to his own jurisdiction.

MR. DODD: You sat in on all of these conferences with Heydrich, no matter how many there were, did you not?

LAUTERBACHER: I participated in one conference on the question of homosexuality in the Hitler Youth.

MR. DODD: Tell us this: Did it appear to you, from what you saw and heard there, that Heydrich and Schirach were very friendly, or on a very friendly basis?

LAUTERBACHER: That conference did not take place with Von Schirach, but with one of the officials from the Reich Youth Leader's Office who, as Chief of the Hitler Youth Legal Administration, conducted the discussion with Heydrich.

MR. DODD: Were you ever present when Heydrich talked to Von Schirach? Were you ever present?



27 May 46

MR. DODD: Did Heydrich ever talk to you, or rather, did Von Schirach ever talk to you about Heydrich?

LAUTERBACHER: No, I cannot remember that.

MR. DODD: We have no further questions, Mr. President.


DR. SAUTER: Thank you, I have no further questions.

THE PRESIDENT: The witness may retire.

DR. SAUTER: With the permission of the President, I shall now call my next witness, Gustav Hoepken.

[The witness Hoepken took the stand.]

THE PRESIDENT: Will you state your full name, please?

GUSTAV DIETRICH HOEPKEN (Witness): Gustav Dietrich Hoepken.

THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me: I swear by God-the Almighty and Omniscient-that I will speak the pure truth-and will withhold and add nothing.

[The witness repeated the oath.]

THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.

DR. SAUTER: Herr Hoepken, I have already examined you on the case of Schirach when you were in Prison?

HOEPKEN: Yes, you have already examined me.

DR. SAUTER: How old are you?

HOEPKEN: I am 36.

DR. SAUTER: What is your father's occupation?

HOEPKEN: My father is a dock laborer.

DR. SAUTER: And yourself?

HOEPKEN: I was a newspaper boy, a dock laborer, a spare-time student, and sports instructor.

DR. SAUTER: Sports instructor. You are now in American hands, are you not?

HOEPKEN: Yes, I am a prisoner in American hands.

DR. SAUTER: Since when?

HOEPKEN: Since 19 May 1945.

DR. SAUTER: Has the Prosecution interrogated you on this matter?

HOEPKEN: Up to now the Prosecution has not interrogated me.

DR. SAUTER: When did you join the Hitler Youth?

HOEPKEN: I joined the Hitler Youth in 1933.


27 May 46

DR. SAUTER: You joined the Hitler Youth in 1933? How old were you at that time?

HOEPKEN: I was 23.

DR. SAUTER: And in what capacity did you join?

HOEPKEN: First as an ordinary member. In September 1933 I became an Unterbannfuehrer in the Hitler Youth.

DR. SAUTER: Unterbannfuehrer in 1933?

HOEPKEN: Yes, in September 1933.

DR. SAUTER: Was that a salaried position or an honorary appointment?

HOEPKEN: From 1933 to 1935 I worked as a sports instructor in the Hitler Youth.

DR. SAUTER: And in 1935?

HOEPKEN: In 1935 I joined the government offices at Potsdam as an expert on PT in schools.

DR. SAUTER: But that had nothing to do with the Hitler Youth, had it?

HOEPKEN: At Potsdam I also commanded the Potsdam unit and local headquarters of the Hitler Youth.

DR. SAUTER: So you were a civil servant-or rather, an employee of the State and apart from that an honorary leader of the Hitler Youth?

HOEPKEN: From 1935 until 1939 I was a civil servant in the government offices at Potsdam and I also commanded the Hitler Youth unit and local headquarters at Potsdam in an honorary capacity.

DR. SAUTER: Therefore in the summer of 1939 you joined the Reich Youth Leadership, did you?

HOEPKEN: In June 1939 I joined the Reich Youth Leadership and became adjutant to Baldur van Schirach who was Reich Youth Leader at the time.

DR. SAUTER: And how long did you hold that of lice?

HOEPKEN: Until August 1939, and then I became a soldier.

DR. SAUTER: Before you joined Schirach's staff, had you not served in the Armed Forces?

HOEPKEN: Up to joining Schirach in 1939 I had done 8 weeks' obligatory training in the Air Force.

DR. SAUTER: Apart from that, you had no training?

HOEPKEN: Apart from that I had no military training.


27 May 46

DR. SAUTER: Were you an officer?

HOEPKEN: I had not been an officer up to that time.

DR. SAUTER: So far as his other collaborators were concerned, did Schirach attach importance to their being officers or trained soldiers?

HOEPKEN: So far as I know, Von Schirach did not care whether his collaborators were soldiers or officers, on the contrary, it was his view, as he told me repeatedly, that soldiers and officers, as far as he could see, were less suitable as youth leaders.

DR. SAUTER: I do not want to go into the general question of the training of the Hitler Youth, but I wish to ask you one single question on this point, especially because you are a sports instructor by profession. It is a question about the training of the Hitler Youth in shooting. Were they trained with military weapons, or how were they trained in firing?

HOEPKEN: The Hitler Youth were trained in shooting with air guns or small arms. They did not shoot with military weapons.

DR. SAUTER: In that case I will not put any further questions to you on the subject of uniform as these questions have already been clarified. But there is one other thing in which I am interested and that is the relationship to the Church: Do you know, Witness, whether the Defendant Von Schirach in 1937, that is in the issue of the Berlin paper, the Berliner Tageblatt R 14 January 1937, published an article written by his press adviser Gunther Kaufmann, headed "Can the Gap be Bridged"? That article, a copy of which I have before me, deals with a problem in which I am interested, and that is why I want to ask you: Do you know what Schirach made his press adviser write in that article on the question of whether the Hitler Youth leaders should consider the young people's need for church services or not?

HOEPKEN: I know the article.

DR. SAUTER: You know it?

HOEPKEN: I also know the order issued by the Reich Youth Leader of that time stating that on Sundays there should be no Hitler Youth duty for all those boys and girls who wanted to attend church. Every boy and girl in the Hitler Youth at that time was supposed to be able to attend religious services of his or her own free will; and it was made part of the duty of the Hitler Youth leaders at the time to refrain from entering into any arguments or controversies about the Hitler Youth and the Church. He prohibited that.


27 May 46

DR. SAUTER: Witness, that is the main point of that article of 14 January 1937. But you know that the Defendant Schirach had certain difficulties with Hitler because of this article. Will you tell us briefly what you know about it?

HOEPKEN: As soon as the agreement between the Church and the Hitler Youth was made, the article mentioned appeared in the Berliner Tageblatt. On the day that article appeared, Schirach was at a meeting in Rosenberg's office. Hitler called Schirach to the telephone at that time. Hitler took Schirach sternly to task, firstly, for making an agreement between the Church and the Hitler Youth and, secondly, for publishing this article. His intention was to cancel the agreement and to ban any further issue of the newspapers. Neither of these things happened.

DR. SAUTER: Did Schirach refuse to withdraw the article?

HOEPKEN: So far as I know he did.

DR. SAUTER: In 1940 you went to Vienna with Schirach?

HOEPKEN: No, I did not.

DR. SAUTER: When did you go?

HOEPKEN: I went to Vienna for the first time in September 1941.

DR. SAUTER: Where had you been in the meantime?

HOEPKEN: I have already told you that I joined the Luftwaffe in August 1939 and served during that time as a service flying instructor in a Luftwaffe training school.

DR. SAUTER: And you did not rejoin Schirach until 1941, and then in Henna?

HOEPKEN: Yes; I joined Schirach in Vienna in September 1941.

DR. SAUTER: The highest dignitary of the Catholic Church in Vienna is Cardinal Innitzer, right?


DR. SAUTER: Do you know what Von Schirach's attitude to Cardinal Innitzer was? I will tell you at once why I am asking you this question; I want to know if it is true that Schirach objected to Cardinal Innitzer's being molested by the Hitler Youth, and what steps he took, et cetera.

HOEPKEN: Schirach told me repeatedly that he would like to have a talk with Cardinal Innitzer, but that he was not allowed to do so, firstly, because of a decree issued by the former head of the Party Chancellery, Martin Bormann, prohibiting the Gauleiter from contacting Church dignitaries and, secondly, because Schirach knew that he himself was under surveillance.


27 May 46

DR. SAUTER: Who, Schirach?

HOEPKEN: That Schirach was under surveillance and thought that if he forced such a discussion, Bormann would be certain to know of it on the next day, which would have had most unpleasant consequences both for Schirach and Cardinal Innitzer. On the other hand, it was Schirach's view that Cardinal Innitzer also would certainly have liked to have a talk with Schirach and Schirach thought that certainly would not have been the case if Cardinal Innitzer had not known of his tolerant attitude toward the Church and the Christian religion. It is furthermore known to me-and I think this happened in the winter of 1944 to 1945-that Cardinal Innitzer was molested by youthful civilians while returning from mass. Cardinal Innitzer had the police find out the names of these youngsters, and they turned out to be Hitler Youth leaders. Schirach ordered the competent district leader of the Hitler Youth to him the same day, took him severely to task, and demanded that the youth leaders in question be relieved of their duties at once. As far as I know, this was actually done. I believe I also remember that Schirach had a letter of apology sent to Cardinal Innitzer, either personally or through one of his officials.

THE PRESIDENT: I think we had better break off now.

[The Tribunal adjourned until 28 May 1946 at 1000 hours.]


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