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Oberst Karmann stated that the Armed Forces had so far maintained no contact whatsoever with the ex-service men. The only contact which the ex-service men have, is the vote of their maintenance at the Reich Ministry of Labor. Oberst Karmann intends to establish an Ex-service men's Association for which membership of the SA is laid down as a condition. Ex-service men wait for about 3 years from the time their active service ends until they obtain a Civil Service post. Roughly estimated, they number about 20,000 men. In addition, approximately 8,000 non-commissioned officers and men are released yearly. The demand for these ex-service men is so great that, for example, Oberst Karmann has difficulty in obtaining personnel for his establishment. Oberst Karmann, however, wishes to send ex-service men compulsorily to the S.A., as soon as this is required by the Chief of Training. As a rule, the ex-service men go where they receive the best pay. Furthermore, Oberst Karmann explained his ideas on the recruitment of non-commissioned officers of the reserve. Forestry and customs officials should, for example, do several years military service with the Reichswehr. A similar provision should be made for officials of other categories. The settling of the question regarding the disadvantages of ex-service men in the SA, compared to those in the Labor Service has been postponed until a later date. Oberst Karmann mentioned that ex-service men, who were not appointed to good, regularly paid positions in the S.A. would, when they claimed their right to maintenance, be at a great practical disadvantage as regards their financial circumstances by reason of their S.A. service. He would see that there was official compensation for this.Berlin, 8 July 1933.
Discussion with Oberst v. Vietinghoff, Chief of Armed Forces Division, on Wednesday the 5th July 33.
1. Leadership of Reich Youth [Reichsjugendfuehrung]. The question of the powers of the Head of the Reich Youth in connection with pre-military training.
I state that, by a decision of the Fuehrer, the spheres of duty of the Head of the Reich Youth, the Reich Commissar for Sport and the Chief of Training are sharply defined. I sent a draft to Munich to that effect.
2. Students. A discussion is taking place today between Oberst v. Vietinghoff and Gerullis regarding the question of military sports for students. Oberst v. Vietinghoff is of the opinion that these matters also should be placed under the control of the Chief of Training.
I mentioned my preliminary negotiations with Herr Schwab, formerly with the General Armed Forces Office [AWA-Allgemeines Wehrmachtsamt] who, as liaison official on the Staff, was arranging this matter of military sports for students on the right lines.
Oberst v. Vietinghoff believes that the Prussian Ministry of Education and Public Worship, will make certain difficulties and would very much like to take a service-officer into the ministry as technical advisor. He suggested Hauptmann von Bernuth for this purpose.
3. I then gave an extensive outline of Bernuth's duties; he was working out the guiding principles for the training of men and the leaders for the military camps and schools for leaders in accordance with the wishes of the Reich Minister for Defense [Reichswehrministerium] with regard to pre-military training, in addition, however, he should make the technical preparations for weapon-training. Oberst v. Vietinghoff declared himself in agreement.
Hauptmann v. Bernuth is being given a long-term appointment to my staff. 002168 131 F2 [ink]
4. Labor Service. Military sports in Labor service camps are suspended for considerations of foreign policy. Dr. Stellbrecht has been to Oberst v. Vietinghoff to inform him that the Labor Service is being organized on the wrong lines.
5. The Office for Defence Policy [Wehrpolitisches Amt]. My answer to Oberst v. Vietinghoff's question was that of the "Wehrpolitisches Amt" must not interfere with my sphere of duties and that I considered it advisable to dissolve it.
Oberst v. Vietinghoff is of the opinion that the "Wehrpolitisches Amt" has become superfluous and that all questions relating to military sports should again be decided by the Chief of 'Training.
6. The budget. I drew Oberst von Vietinghoff's attention to the fact that the budget question must find its solution through the S.A., that it was not advisable for the Reich Ministry for defence to put the care for the budget on behalf of the Chief of Training, for that might cause difficulties. I drew attention to Oberst v. Reichenau's suggestion and how it would work out.
Oberst v. Reichenau recommends that the budget adviser to the Chief of Training should contact Major Osterkamp, the expert of the Reich Ministry for Defense, who is very experienced in these matters. It would then be easier to get the budget passed by the Reich Ministry for Finance.
I declared myself ready to examine the budget, in conjunction with the Reich Ministry for Defense, as soon as it was decided upon. Furthermore, the Fuehrer's demand in Reichenhall that I should train 250,000 SA men and leaders within a year so that they would be at the disposal of the Reichswehr in case of emergency, is the basis on which I shall act.
In accordance with this demand of Hitler's I should have to examine the possibilities of instructional training and draw up my budget accordingly. Deductions from the budget made by the Reich Ministry would not be allowed.
7. The Reich Trusteeship. Oberst v. Vietinghoff asked when I was taking over the Trusteeship of the Reich, to which I answered that I had had a talk with Neuville today and that he had requested me in the course of this discussion to go with him the next morning to Minister SEldte to obtain information regarding the winding-up of affairs.
Oberst v. Vietinghoff considers this step superfluous, and only calculated to cause further delay. I assured him that I was of the same opinion.
8. Branch Leaders [Zweigstellenleiter]. I referred to my order to the main groups; it is to be left to them to employ Branch Leaders as Training Inspectors as they are required. If they were not needed, the former Branch Leaders would have to leave their posts.Berlin, 5 July 1933.
Discussion with Reich Defense Minister v. Blomberg on 15 July, 0930 hours.
1. My note of 13.7 to General v. Blomberg showed both parties that, in fact, there had been a misunderstanding in the way the budget question was viewed. General v. Blomberg had not been informed that Oberst v. Reichenau had tried to have the budget for the Chief of Training of the S.A. introduced by the Reich Ministry for Defense.
The Fuehrer's statement of 12.7 regarding the basic regulations for pre-military fitness training for youth, which had been shown to him today, had cleared all doubts.
At the last discussion he had merely intended to grant to the Chief of Training from his own special Fund for Training purposes, money which might possibly be refused by the Reich Minister for Finance. He had only wished to offer his services for this purpose, and today agreed with me that the Reich Ministry of the Interior should decide upon the budget for the Chief of Training and put the case before the cabinet.
2. With a view to a practical solution of the budget problems he suggests that a discussion should take place between the Chiefs at the beginning of August, in which the Ministers Frick, Schwerin-Krosigk, and v. Blomberg should take part; he recommended also that I should first have a word with State Secretary Reinhard in the Reich Ministry for Finance to smooth the way.
3. General v. Blomberg had me explain to him the forms of training in the military camps and requested that the very necessary camouflage measures be taken.
4. Relationship of the higher S. A.-Fuehrerkorps to the Reich Ministry for Defense.Berlin, 15.7.33.
Discussion (1.9. 1933/0936 hours) between Oberst Hinria and Hauptmann von Wolf (general section and Armed Forces Section of Reich Ministry of Defense) on the one hand and Stabsfuehrer Waehmann and Adjutant Kiefer on the other.
Oberst Hinria expressed the wishes of the members of the Reichswehr. The latter wish, on entering the SA after their demobilization to receive a rank corresponding to their last appointment. They consider it inadvisable that, for example a non-commissioned officer on entering the SA should have, as his superior in rank, a man who was formerly under him.
As opposed to this, Stabsfuehrer Waehmann holds that this idea is contrary to the spirit and the service instructions of the SA, for it is a demand which is particularly stressed in the SA that one should place oneself voluntarily under the orders of another.
With regard to the Unions [Treubuende] the commonly held opinion is voiced that their main purpose was to prevent the members of the Reichswehr due for release from going over to the left. After the assumption of power, since this danger was averted, this purpose will no longer be held good in future. Nevertheless, Oberst Hinria advocates their continued existence, for the reasons stated below.
Suggestions for a temporary solution: In future the Reichswehr will presumably only be recruited from members of the S.A. Thus the men being demobilized, will automatically return to the S.A. Therefore, the solution for this period is simple.Filing reference [in ink] 131 Gi [in ink]
Discussion with State Secretary Reinhard, Reich Ministry for Finance on the morning of 18.7
1. I reported to State Secretary Reinhard on the whole question of the budget for the new sphere of duties assigned to Chief of Training; I also asked that the further payment of the budget funds granted by the Reich Ministry for Finance and belonging to the Reich Trusteeship, since dissolved, should be cleared up for the current financial year.
2. Preliminary examination of the supplementary budget drafted by me for the financial year 33/34 and an additional demand of approximately 25 millions.
State Secretary Reinhard considers it very difficult under the circumstances to carry through the supplementary budget for the current financial year. He was informed that the Reich Ministry for Finance wishes to dispose of the funds granted from the Reich Trusteeship, but on the other hand considers it necessary that the discussion of Chiefs mentioned by General v. Blomberg should take place between the Ministries. Taking the long view, State Secretary Reinhard believes that the estimated budget could still be approved if the unemployment problem were solved in the autumn. This is in his opinion a preliminary condition.
In addition, however, Finance Minister Krosigk had the matter of the budget in his own hands, for the [Reinhard] has to solve all the problems relating to unemployment.Berlin, 18 July 1933.
Discussion with Ministerial Director Gerullis, Prussian Ministry for Public Worship and Instruction. on 17 and 18.7.33
1. Gerullis is fundamentally of the opinion that all military sports in the colleges and universities should be in the hands of the Chief of Training. He declared himself to be in agreement with my suggestion to take onto my staff as liaison officer a Student Leader who is still to be nominated, (Schwab or Krueger) and who, according to my suggestion, is to be responsible for all training in military sports.
In addition it is necessary for carrying this out further, that the S.A. Leaders etc., at present appointed as instructors in military sport in the Colleges and universities, should once again be summoned to a special course in order to do their training on the new lines. Gerullis suggests Councillor Ministerialrat Haupt, present at today's discussion, as representative for Prussia. [3 illegible words in ink and illegible initials follow]
2. From 1 October, five officers of the General Staff are to be appointed for 3 years to the Universities of Koenigsberg, Breslau, Berlin, Cologne, and Frankfurt-on-main to teach military tactics, leave of absence being granted for that period.
(Regulars, 5 senior Staff officers for this) [marginal note in pencil]
They will give lectures on military tactics in those universities. On 1 September these gentlemen will be brought to Berlin and will make contact with the Chief of Training. Questions regarding Military Training are to be cleared up with me by these gentlemen. This ruling is the joint decision as mentioned by Oberstleutnant Weissenberger, who also took part in the discussion of the Reich Ministry for Defense and the Prussian Ministry for public Worship and Education.
3. With regard to the former soldiers of the Reichswehr now united in the Unions it was said: The SA has no interest in incorporating the Unions, for all elements who do not believe firmly in the principles of the new idealogy, are unwanted. (There is also no power of authority over these unions). The troop commanders should, however, be guaranteed authoritative influence over the unions in their commands. They should then see to it that:
1. All those who have hitherto been members of the Unions, who are suitable by reason of their ideology, are incorporated into the S.A.
2. That the members of the Reichswehr due for release in the future continue to join the unions which are under the supervision of the Commanders, but are without exception incorporated into the SA. The necessary foundations for this enrollment are to be laid immediately upon entry into the Reichswehr and also constantly during military service.
Oberst Hinria has also set up for future use the following organization and order of service:
1. SA with preparation for the Reichswehr.
2. Period of service with the Reichswehr.
3. Re-entry into SA after release.
4. Transfer to the S.A. Reserve [SA-Handwehr] after the age of 45.
(Expansion of the Kyffhaeuser Union to form the SA Reserve.)[illegible pencilled initials]
I am very much obliged for the dates of the Fleet Maneuvers sent to me at the request of the Chief of Naval Staff [Chf der Marineleitung].
On the 17th inst. I shall go on board in Pillan punctually at 1200 and will take the liberty of reporting in good time when and where, I shall be arriving in Pillan, for before that I shall probably be on a duty visit in East Prussia.
I take this opportunity of expressing a personal wish.
The Chief of Staff, Oberst-leutnant Roehm, informed me that he will also be present at the Fleet Maneuvers. I should be very grateful if I could go on board the same cruiser, for I think that particularly with regard to the whole question of the training of Naval-SA units, my presence might be of value. Since the problems relating to this are my responsibility, it would be a great advantage to me, if the opportunity were offered me, to discuss the question and all its complications with the Chief of Staff. In Nurnberg I took the opportunity of discussing the matter with Korvettenkapitaen Kieseritzky, who is assigned to my staff. Korvettenkapitaen kieseritzky believes, however, that it is unlikely that my request will be fulfilled on account of the distribution already on hand.
For this reason, Sir, I am again applying directly to you.
Perhaps Korvettenkapitaen Kieseritzky could inform me briefly whether my request can be granted.Your very faithfully,
1. The speech delivered by the Fuehrer to the SA leaders on the evening of Tuesday the 17.10, has induced me to bring up for decision by the Chief of Staff, the question, as to whether it is right that the SA training in the Army of the Reich should be continued. In the clearly expressed declaration of the Fuehrer there might be lost a suggestion of apprehension, if we trained the SA in the Reichswehr; informers and spies might have the opportunity of passing information regarding that training to our foreign political opponents.
The Chief of Staff intends to decide this question before the Gruppenfuehrer at the Gruppenfuehrer discussion on 23.10, while I am commissioned to discuss the decision intended at the Reich Ministry for Defense. If the Reich Minister for Defense assumes complete responsibility for the resulting consequences, the Chief of Staff agrees to the training of the SA in the army.
I informed Hauptmann von Dernuth on 18.10 of this wish of the Chief of Staff, with the request that he would inform Oberst von Reichenau to that effect, and obtain the decision of the Reich Minister for Defense.
On 19.10, 1100 hours, Oberst von Reichenau asked me to attend a discussion during which this question was approached again. Oberst von Reichenau drew attention to the fact that, to reject the training of the SA in the Army of the Reich, by this decision of the Chief of Staff, would mean that the training by special courses would also be a thing of the past and also the entire training in frontier-guard duties would be rendered impossible. I replied that, with regard to the questions of frontier protection, no conversation had taken place between the Chief of Staff and myself. This point would therefore need special consideration.C002177/1 P.T.O.
The Chief of Staff is placing the decision with the Reich Minister for Defense, who, for his part, bears the responsibility for the training of the SA in the Army of the Reich.
The clearly-expressed speech of the Fuehrer on 17.10 caused the Chief of Staff to clear up the question of responsibility in such a way as to leave no room for doubt; for this reason it was absolutely necessary that the Reich Minister for Defense should make inquiries of the Chancellor.
If the Reich Minister for Defense assumed full and complete responsibility for the training in the Army of the Reich, the Chief of Staff saw no reason to cease training the SA in the Army.
II. Oberst von Reichenau showed me the letter written by Obergruppenfuehrer von Jagow to the Reich Minister for Defense by way of reply to the complaint made by the Reich Minister for Defense regarding Obergruppenfuehrer von Jagow.
Since it was possible to misinterpret the wording of von Jagow's letter, I repeated to Oberst von Reichenau the remarks I had made to Jagow, which the Reich Minister for Defense made in my presence. It appeared that Obergruppenfuehrer von Jagow had had the opportunity on the occasion of his visit to Berlin on 17.10, to speak to Korvettenkapitaen von Langsdorff at the Reich Defense Ministry on the suspension of weapon training in the SA camps. A remark made by Jagow on this subject, which was quite unimportant and only reached Minister von Blomberg in the course of a report, was the reason for Minister von Blomberg's complaint regarding Obergruppenfuehrer von Jagow.
Oberst von Reichenau remarked that there had been a misunderstanding on the part of the Reich Minister for Defense and, after examining the facts, he was of the opinion that the complaint made by the Reich Minister for Defense about Obergruppenfuehrer von Jagow, which was reported by word of mouth to Obergruppenfuehrer Krueger had been unnecessary.C002178/1
Reich Minister for Defense von Blomberg would now feel induced to write to Jagow.
III. Discussion regarding the appointment of personnel to the Reich Ministry for Defense.
IV. Discussion about the case of von Reichenau, von Obernity, and Gruppenfuehrer Franken. It so happened that, through Hauptmann Fenchtlinger, Nurnberg, a conversation between himself and Gruppenfuehrer von Obernity has come to the knowledge of the ministry.
Oberst von Reichenau is very anxious that this misunderstanding should be removed. He will therefore write a personal letter to Gruppenfuehrer von Obernity.Berlin, 19 October 1933.
Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression Volume IV
Office of the United States Chief Counsel for Prosecution of Axis Criminality
Washington, DC : United States Government Printing Office, 1946