The Avalon Project : Afghan People vs. The Taliban - Hearing Before the Subcommittee on International Relations and Human Rights; October 31, 2001

September 11, 2001 : Attack on America
Afghan People vs. The Taliban - Hearing Before the Subcommittee on International Relations and Human Rights; October 31, 2001

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2001

AFGHAN PEOPLE VS. THE TALIBAN:
THE STRUGGLE FOR FREEDOM INTENSIFIES

HEARING

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON
INTERNATIONAL OPERATIONS AND HUMAN RIGHTS

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON
INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED SEVENTH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

OCTOBER 31, 2001

Serial No. 10759

 Page 2              

Printed for the use of the Committee on International Relations

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.house.gov/internationalrelations

COMMITTEE ON INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS

HENRY J. HYDE, Illinois, Chairman

BENJAMIN A. GILMAN, New York
JAMES A. LEACH, Iowa
DOUG BEREUTER, Nebraska
CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey
DAN BURTON, Indiana
ELTON GALLEGLY, California
ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida
CASS BALLENGER, North Carolina
DANA ROHRABACHER, California
EDWARD R. ROYCE, California
PETER T. KING, New York
STEVE CHABOT, Ohio
AMO HOUGHTON, New York
JOHN M. McHUGH, New York
RICHARD BURR, North Carolina
JOHN COOKSEY, Louisiana

 Page 3              
THOMAS G. TANCREDO, Colorado
RON PAUL, Texas
NICK SMITH, Michigan
JOSEPH R. PITTS, Pennsylvania
DARRELL E. ISSA, California
ERIC CANTOR, Virginia
JEFF FLAKE, Arizona
BRIAN D. KERNS, Indiana
JO ANN DAVIS, Virginia

TOM LANTOS, California
HOWARD L. BERMAN, California
GARY L. ACKERMAN, New York
ENI F.H. FALEOMAVAEGA, American Samoa
DONALD M. PAYNE, New Jersey
ROBERT MENENDEZ, New Jersey
SHERROD BROWN, Ohio
CYNTHIA A. McKINNEY, Georgia
EARL F. HILLIARD, Alabama
BRAD SHERMAN, California
ROBERT WEXLER, Florida
JIM DAVIS, Florida
ELIOT L. ENGEL, New York
WILLIAM D. DELAHUNT, Massachusetts
GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York

 Page 4              
BARBARA LEE, California
JOSEPH CROWLEY, New York
JOSEPH M. HOEFFEL, Pennsylvania
EARL BLUMENAUER, Oregon
SHELLEY BERKLEY, Nevada
GRACE NAPOLITANO, California
ADAM B. SCHIFF, California
DIANE E. WATSON, California

THOMAS E. MOONEY, SR., Staff Director/General Counsel
ROBERT R. KING, Democratic Staff Director

Subcommittee on International Operations and Human Rights
ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida, Chairwoman
CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey
RON PAUL, Texas
CASS BALLENGER, North Carolina
THOMAS G. TANCREDO, Colorado
JOSEPH R. PITTS, Pennsylvania

CYNTHIA A. McKINNEY, Georgia
ROBERT MENENDEZ, New Jersey
GRACE NAPOLITANO, California
ADAM B. SCHIFF, California


 Page 5              
MAURICIO TAMARGO, Subcommittee Staff Director
JEFFREY PILCH, Democratic Professional Staff Member
YLEEM POBLETE, Professional Staff Member
SANDY ACOSTA, Staff Associate
C O N T E N T S

WITNESSES

Lorne W. Craner, Assistant Secretary, Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights and Labor, U.S. Department of State

Jeffrey J. Lundstead, Senior Advisor and Afghanistan Coordinator, Bureau of South Asian Affairs, U.S. Department of State

T. Kumar, Advocacy Director for Asia & Pacific, Amnesty International USA

Tahmeena Faryal, Representative, Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan

A. Quadir Amiryar, Ph.D., Executive Director, Central Asia Research and Development Center, George Washington University

Haron Amin, Special Representative/Spokesperson, United Front (Northern Alliance)

Page 6

LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC., SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING

The Honorable Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, a Representative in Congress from the State of Florida, and Chairwoman, Subcommittee on International Operations and Human Rights: Prepared statement

The Honorable Cynthia A. McKinney, a Representative in Congress from the State of Georgia: Prepared statement

Written statement by Eleanor Smeal, President, The Feminist Majority, submitted by the Honorable Cynthia A. McKinney

The Honorable Joseph R. Pitts, a Representative in Congress from the State of Pennsylvania: Prepared statement

Lorne W. Craner: Prepared statement

T. Kumar: Prepared statement

Tahmeena Faryal: Prepared statement

A. Quadir Amiryar: Prepared statement

Haron Amin: Prepared statement

Page 7

AFGHAN PEOPLE VS. THE TALIBAN: THE STRUGGLE FOR FREEDOM INTENSIFIES

WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 31, 2001

House of Representatives,

Subcommittee on International

Operations and Human Rights,

Committee on International Relations,

Washington, DC.

The Subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 3:05 p.m. in Room 2172, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen [Chairperson of the Subcommittee] presiding.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. The Subcommittee will now come to order.

''[He who wrongfully slays another] would be as if he slew the whole people; and if one save a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people,''

these are the words that one can find in Surah 5 of the Holy Koran.

But in 1996, a heavy shroud was placed on the people of Afghanistan when the Taliban captured Kabul. Since then, the Taliban has taken the peaceful and sacred scriptures of the Prophet Muhammad, and distorted them into a rulebook of terror.

Through the creation of their Department of Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice, the Taliban has enforced a perverse rendition of Islam which gruesomely joins constant and faithful prayer, with the barbaric practices of beatings, torture, rape, and executions.

Page 8

The Taliban's reign of terror has riddled the country with death and sorrow. Well before the September 11th attacks, the Taliban engaged in widespread ethnic cleansing, littering the ground of Afghanistan with the mass graves of ethnic and religious minorities.

For instance, when the Taliban captured one of the cities in Central Afghanistan, an estimated 2 to 5,000 males were executed, often without making the distinction between combatant or civilian. The raping of women and girls during the seize was savage and rampant.

But the Taliban's brutality is best reflected among half of its population, the women of Afghanistan. Made widows and orphans by the will of the Taliban, they have been made destitute, sick, and marginalized.

Not allowed to work, the same women that once made up 50 percent of Afghanistan's doctors, nurses, teachers, civil servants and students, now have no choice but to beg for food, daily, as a means of providing for themselves and their children.

They are further restricted from leaving their homes without the company of a male relative and from receiving any education past the age of 8. And at that, the curriculum of that education is limited to the Taliban's perverted version of the Koran.

This segment of the population is further alienated by the denial of proper medical treatment. Women cannot be treated by a male doctor in most hospitals, and when allowed to be treated by a male physician, he is prohibited from examining her unless she is fully clothed in Taliban-approved garb. Further, the doctor cannot touch her, thus limiting the possibility of any medical diagnosis or meaningful treatment.

Page 9

Bearing the scars of the Taliban's crimes against its own people, Afghanistan's women have been buried beneath a veil.

The burqa, the forcible cover of women, is an attempt by the Taliban to hide from the world the violence and pain that the regime has imposed on Afghanistan under the pretext of religion.

The Taliban is far from being students of the true Muslim faith. As President George W. Bush has stated repeatedly, the Taliban has ''hijacked Islam,'' arrogantly prescribing its interpretation of the Koran on a population that never practiced nor endorsed such a violent and incorrect view.

As. Dr. Sima Samar, an Afghan physician who operates schools and clinics for Afghan girls and women, has said:

''The Taliban took Islam and turned it on its head . . . Islam does not teach terror. Islam does not teach violence. Islam does not teach lack of respect for women. Islam is civilized.''

In the aftermath of the September 11th attacks, the dreaded Ministry for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice has reportedly unleashed an intense terror campaign, targeting young men perceived as possible sources of insurgency or unrest. They are being beaten, locked into cargo containers being used as cells or taken away to one of Kabul's most notoriously brutal jails.

Page 10

This Subcommittee has been planning on holding this hearing for quite some time. Originally scheduled, ironically enough, for September 12th, it was overtaken by events.

However, before it became evident to the world, there were those who understood that the welfare and freedom of the Afghan people are directly intertwined with the safety and security of the world, because a regime which commits such heinous acts against its own people, cannot be expected to place any value on the lives of others.

The reality sadly hit home for us on September 11th. Suddenly there was a convergence of interest and priorities.

The United States finds itself, once again, with the ability to support the Afghan people in their struggle to be free from a foreign presencea presence which is not foreign geographically, but one which invaded the lives of Afghans; one who holds the Afghan people hostage; one which imposes a false and foreign ideology on the Afghan people. That foreign ideology is terrorism, and radial militant Islam. Yet the U.S. must learn from history and avoid repeating the mistakes of the past.

As Afghanistan broke loose from the grip of Soviet occupation, the United States viewed its Cold War obligations as having been met. We left a vacuum which was then filled by civil strife, drugs, and warlords.

All agree that it is the Afghan people themselves who have to build the nation that will succeed the Taliban's cruel and unjust rule. However, there is also consensus on the need for the U.S. and the international political and material support to help the Afghan people.

Page 11

A post-Taliban scenario is one of the main things that we are here to discuss today with our mostly Afghan panel. The U.S. role is not to dictate what a post-Taliban government will look like. Our role is to empower and enable, in order to ensure that the true and unfettered voice of the Afghan people is heard loudly and clearly.

While the Rome Process' work toward a Loya Jirga has been underway for a few years, it has gained significant momentum in the aftermath of the September 11th terrorist attacks.

In a September 18th letter to President Bush, the former Afghan king outlined the renewed focus of the Rome Process and prescribed the ''formation of a broad based supreme council consisting of representatives of various ethnic groups . . . until an emergency Loya Jirga is convened.''

As it stands, the ''Supreme Council for the National Unity of Afghanistan,'' has been agreed to by the king, by the Northern Alliance and by other participants. Its composition will hold 120 members; 50 representing the royalists, 50 representing the Northern Alliance, and another 20 seats would be chosen by both sides or left open for defecting Taliban leaders.

However, there are various ideas about how to proceed during the Rome process and thereafter.

There are those who argue the true representative, broad-based government in Afghanistan must include moderate Taliban leaders. However, what constitutes moderate? How is it defined?

Page 12

When the Taliban executes opposition leaders in 1 weekend, including one who had proposed raising a small force of ex-guerrillas and Taliban defectors to carry him into Kabul, it is extremely difficult to imagine any such moderate element wishing to support the peace process.

Those representatives participating in the Rome process believe that Kabul must be demilitarized and that a small US-backed international peacekeeping force would probably be necessary to avoid a power vacuum and to shield the future government in Kabul. However, how to go about such a mission still needs to be further discussed.

Should a force be composed of UN peacekeepers? Should they be troops from neutral or friendly Muslim countries such as Turkey or Jordan, but under the auspices of the UN? Would Afghan forces under the UN be a feasible option?

Can neighboring countries such as Pakistan and Iran, and other such as Russia, be neutralized to prevent their interference in a post-Taliban Afghanistan?

We hope that today's hearing will further lift the heavy veil which shrouds the Afghan people, and will allow the truth and the suffering that they have endured to step and creep out into the light.

As Surah 5 of the Holy Koran reads, the Congress and the United States must act to save one life at a time, and by that, do what we can to save Afghanistan.

Page 13

And now I am proud to yield to a Ranking Member of our Subcommittee, my friend Cynthia McKinney of Georgia.

[The prepared statement of Ms. Ros-Lehtinen follows:]

PREPARED STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF FLORIDA, AND CHAIRWOMAN, SUBCOMMITTEE ON INTERNATIONAL OPERATIONS AND HUMAN RIGHTS

''[He who wrongfully slays another] would be as if he slew the whole people; and if any one save a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people,'' these are the words one can find in Surah 5 of the holy Koran.

In 1996, a heavy shroud was placed on the people of Afghanistan when the Taliban captured Kabul. Since then, the Taliban has taken such peaceful and sacred scriptures of the Prophet Muhammad, and distorted them into a rulebook of terror.

Through the creation of their Department to Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice, the Taliban has enforced a perverse rendition of Islam which gruesomely joins constant and faithful prayer, with the barbaric practices of beatings, torture, rape, and executions.

Page 14

For instance, when the Taliban captured one of the cities in Central Afghanistan, an estimated 2 to 5,000 males were executed, often without first making the distinction between combatant or civilian. The raping of women and girls during the siege was savage and rampant.

Not allowed to work, the same women that once made up 50% of Afghanistan's doctors, nurses, teachers, civil servants, and students, now have no choice but to beg for food, daily, as a means of providing for themselves and their children.

They are further restricted from leaving their homes without the company of a male relative and from receiving any education past the age of 8, for which the curriculum is limited to the Taliban's perverted version of the Koran.

This segment of the population is further alienated by the denial of proper medical treatment. Women cannot be treated by male physicians in most hospitals, and when allowed to be treated by a male doctor, he is prohibited from examining her unless if she is fully clothed in Taliban-approved garb. Further, the doctor cannot touch her, thus limiting the possibility of any medical diagnosis or meaningful treatment.

Bearing the scars of the Taliban's crimes against its own people, Afghanistan's women have been buried beneath a veil.

Page 15

The burqa, the forcible cover of women, is an attempt by the Taliban to hide from the world the violence and pain that the regime has imposed on Afghanistan under the pretext of religion.

The Taliban are far from being students of the true Muslim faith. As President George W. Bush has stated repeatedly, the Taliban has ''hijacked Islam,'' arrogantly prescribing its interpretation of the Koran on a population that never practiced nor endorsed such a violent and incorrect view.

As Dr. Sima Samar, an Afghan physician who operates schools and clinics for Afghan girls and women, has said: ''The Taliban took Islam and turned it on its head . . . Islam does not teach terror. Islam does not teach violence. Islam does not teach lack of respect for women. Islam is civilized.''

In the aftermath of the September 11th attacks, the dreaded ministry for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice has reportedly unleashed an intense terror campaign, targeting young men perceived as possible sources of insurgency or unrest. They are being beaten, locked into cargo containers used as cells or taken away to one of Kabul's most notoriously brutal jails.

This Subcommittee has been planning on holding this hearing for quite some time. Originally scheduled for September 12, 2001, it was overtaken by events.

Page 16

However, before it became evident to the world, there were those who understood that the welfare and freedom of the Afghan people are directly intertwined with the safety and security of the world, because a regime which commits such heinous crimes against its own people, cannot be expected to place any value on the lives of others.

This reality hit home for us on September 11th.

Suddenly there was a convergence of interests and priorities.

That foreign ideology is terrorism, and radical militant Islam.

The US must learn from history and avoid repeating the mistakes of the past.

Page 17

All agree that it is the Afghan people themselves who have to build the nation that will succeed the Taliban's cruel and unjust rule.

However, there is also consensus on the need for US and international political and material support to help the Afghan people convene the Loya Jirga.

A post-Taliban scenario is one of the main things that we are here to discuss today with our mostly Afghan panel.

The US role is not to dictate what a post-Taliban government will look like. Our role is to empower and enable, in order to ensure that the true and unfettered voice of the Afghan people is heard loudly and clearly.

While the Rome Process towards a Loya Jirga has been underway for a few years, it has gained significant momentum in the aftermath of the September 11th terrorist attacks.

In a September 18th letter to President Bush, the former Afghan King outlined the renewed focus of the Rome Process and prescribed the ''formation of a broad based supreme council consisting of representative of various ethnic groups . . . until an emergency Loya Jirga [is convened].''

As it stands, the ''Supreme Council for the National Unity of Afghanistan,'' has been agreed to by King Shah, the Northern Alliance, and other participants.

Page 18

Its composition will hold 120 members: 50 representing the royalists, 50 representing the Northern Alliance, and another 20 seats would be chosen by both sides or left open for defecting Taliban leaders.

However, there are various ideas about how to proceed during the Rome process and after the Loya Jirga takes place.

There are those who argue that a true representative, broad-based government in Afghanistan must include ''moderate'' Taliban leaders. However, what constitutes ''moderate?'' How is it defined?

When the Taliban executes opposition leaders in one weekend including Abdul Haq (HAHK), who had proposed raising a small force of ex-guerrillas and Taliban defectors to carry him into Kabul, it is extremely difficult to imagine any such moderate element wishing to support the peace process and Loya Jirga.

Those representatives participating in the Rome process believe that Kabul must be demilitarized and that a small, UN backed international peacekeeping force would probably be necessary to avoid a power vacuum and to shield a future government in Kabul.

However, how to go about such a mission still needs to be further discussed.

Should such a force be composed of UN peacekeepers? Should they be troops from neutral or friendly Muslim countries such as Turkey or Jordan but under UN auspices? Would Afghan forces under the UN be a feasible option?

Page 19

Can neighboring countries such as Pakistan and Iran, or others such as Russia, be neutralized to prevent their interference with the Loya Jirga and a post-Taliban Afghanistan?

We hope today's hearing will further lift the heavy veil which shrouds the Afghan people to allow the truth and suffering they have endured to step creep out into the light.

As Surah 5 of the holy Koran reads, the Congress and the United States must act to save one life at a time, and by that, do what we can to help save Afghanistan.

Ms. MCKINNEY. Thank you Madam Chair. I would like to thank you for agreeing to hold this very important hearing on Afghanistan. And I also agree with the very important questions that you have posed, and I hope that our witnesses today will be able to provide some answers.

I am extremely concerned about the humanitarian disaster that we hope to prevent from unfolding. The World Food Program reports today that there are 7.5 million civilians in urgent need in Afghanistan. Of those some 6 million are inside Afghanistan and 1.5 million are refugees. They need U.S. $257 million to get them through the winter months. That amounts to 493,000 metric tons of food aid.

Now, this might sound like a lot, but in realty it is almost nothing compared to what is being spent in Afghanistan right now every day to, in the words of our Secretary of Defense, ''drain the swamp.'' And in fact, it is about one-tenth of one B2 bomber.

Page 20

We know what they need to survive. The world can and must deliver this much needed aid. We are in danger of letting this situation in Afghanistan become another Rwanda. I shudder to think what the consequences will be if the 1.2 billion members of the Islamic world believe that we allowed millions of innocent Afghan women and children to needlessly die in the next few months.

Images of burning Red Cross and UN buildings struck by U.S. bombs contrasted with images of thousands of desperately poor Afghan women carrying sickly and starving children out of Afghanistan as they flee the might of the U.S. military is tearing at international public confidence in our war against terrorism.

Medecins Sans Frontieres called our food drops to the Afghan nothing more than a propaganda campaign seeking to assuage public concerns over the starving millions in Afghanistan. Senator Joe Biden has warned us that we could be seen as the ''high tech bully'' by attacking one of the poorest nations in the third world.

The New York Times reports today that even Britain, our staunchest supporter in this war against terrorism, is concerned that we may be losing the battle for international public opinion in the Islamic world and that this loss of confidence is now even spreading to Western Europe. Large riots against the United States are being reported in Pakistan, Indonesia, Malaysia, Nigeria, and even Turkey.

This time, the infamous Clinton defense of ''We didn't know,'' which was used to justify U.S. inaction in the face of the Rwanda genocide and its bloody aftermath will not work now. We are on clear notice. The world is watching us.

Page 21

The current humanitarian crisis in Afghanistan needs our most urgent attention. If left unresolved, and if millions of innocent of Afghans die, then the hatred against the U.S. will only grow. We have an opportunity to be a force for good in Afghanistan. And I hope and pray that we do not fail.

Madam Chair, I was also pleased to receive in my office and invite to testify today a representative of a very important group in Afghanistan; a group that represents the voice of women who have been mistreated by those in authority, and who want a better life for themselves and their children, and for all the people of Afghanistan. Women can and just play a future role in rebuilding Afghanistan. The international community must ensure that this happens.

The current crisis in Afghanistan has long been in the making. The Heritage Foundation has called U.S. policy toward Afghanistan over the past 20 years one of our colossal failures. President Bush recognized this failure when he acknowledge in an October 11, 2001 press conference that we should not have just left after the military objective had been achieved in Afghanistan.

History has not judged us well, nor have the people of the region.

Now, Afghanistan has captured our attention once again. The people of Afghanistan cannot endure yet another one of our foreign policy failures. We must bring peace and hope to the region, not more suffering and death.

But, Madam Chair, Medecins Sans Frontieres warns us today as we speak that Iran, Pakistan and Tajikistan are facing desperate humanitarian situations as well. The entire region has become one great humanitarian crisis.

Page 22

I have visited the refugee camps in the Pakistan region. I have spoken to women from all the different ethnic groups. I have had to plead for plastic for one women and an extension of space in one refugee camp for another. The things that we take for granted over here are life and death issues for the women and their children over there in those camps.

I asked the women in New Shamshatoo camp, do you know what capitalism is? Do you know what Communism is? They shook their heads. They did not know about global politics and super power conflicts. But they did know about bombs. They knew about war. They knew about men fighting. They knew about their children dying. They knew about trying to defend themselves from cruel men. They knew about trying to defend their children. And they knew they wanted more from life for themselves and their country than they are getting now.

That is the legacy we left there in Afghanistan when we exited the scene as quickly and unceremoniously as the Soviet that we had repelled. And look at what we are doing now.

Madam Chair, the BBC reported in the last few days that our cluster bomb munitions are almost indistinguishable from the food canisters that we are dropping.

How shameful is it that the Pentagon is now having to send messages to the Afghan people to be careful not to pick up packages that look like this cluster bomblet and to make sure that they only pick up packages that look like this food packet.

Madam Chair, how in the world can a 300 billion dollar a year military machine not see to it that the food packets and the bomblets from the cluster bombs they are dropping are not the same color? Is it that they just really do not care?

Page 23

Because that is what is fast becoming the conclusion through the world. Many people are now concluding that we really do not care about the innocent people in Afghanistan. Madam Chair, we must care, and the world must see that we care.

We must solve the humanitarian crisis in Afghanistan and the surrounding regions immediately. We must help put an end to the human rights abuses in Afghanistan. It is not our place to decide who will be the next ruler of Afghanistan. And we certainly should not be supporting any group that does not respect the rights of women. Our role must be to promote democracy. Through their own process of Loya Jirga, the Afghan people are perfectly capable of deciding their own fate.

The United States role ought to be that of an honest broker to facilitate an authentic Afghani Loya Jirga that will lead the Afghan people into peace and dominion over their land and their own resources.

Madam Chair, I would like to submit for the record this document.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Without objection.

Ms. MCKINNEY. Afghan, World's Largest Forgotten Tragedy, which is a publication of the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan.

[The prepared statement of Ms. McKinney follows:]

Page 24

PREPARED STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE CYNTHIA A. MCKINNEY, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF GEORGIA

Thank you Madam Chair for accepting my request to hold this very important hearing today on Afghanistan. I'm extremely concerned about the humanitarian disaster we hope to prevent from unfolding.

The World Food Program reports today that there are 7.5 million civilians in urgent need in Afghanistan. Of these some 6 millions are inside Afghanistan and 1.5 million are refugees. They need US$ 257 million to get them through the winter months. That amounts to 493,000 metric tons of food aid.

Now, this might sound like a lot, but in reality it's almost nothing compared to what is being spent in Afghanistan now every day to, in the words of our Secretary of Defense, ''drain the swamp.'' In fact, it's about one-tenth of one B2 bomber.

We know what they need to survive.

The world can and must deliver this.

We are in danger of letting this situation in Afghanistan become another Rwanda. I shudder to think what the consequences will be if the 1.2 billion members of the Islamic world believe that we allowed millions of innocent Afghan women and children to needlessly die in the next few months.

Page 25

Images of burning Red Cross and UN buildings struck by US bombs contrasted with images of thousands of desperately poor Afghan women carrying sickly and starving children out of Afghanistan as they flee the might of the US military is tearing at international public confidence in our war against terrorism.

Medecins Sans Frontieres called our food drops to the Afghans nothing more than a propaganda campaign seeking to assuage public concerns over the starving millions in Afghanistan. Senator Biden has warned us that we could soon be seen as the ''high tech bully'' by attacking one of the poorest nations in the Third world.

This time, the infamous Clinton defense of ''We didn't know,'' used to justify US inaction in the face of the Rwanda genocide and its bloody aftermath will not work now.

We are on clear notice.

The world is watching us.

The current humanitarian crisis in Afghanistan needs our most urgent attention. If left unresolved, and if millions of innocent Afghans die, then the hatred against the US will only grow. We have an opportunity to be a force for good in Afghanistan. I hope and pray that we do not fail.

Page 26

Madam Chair, I was also pleased to receive in my office and to invite to testify today a representative of a very important group in Afghanistan: a group that represents the voice of women who have been mistreated by those in authority and who want a better life for themselves and their children and for all the people of Afghanistan.

Women, can and must, play a future role in rebuilding Afghanistan.

The international community must ensure that this happens.

The current crisis in Afghanistan has long been in the making. The Heritage Foundation has called US policy toward Afghanistan over the past twenty years one of our colossal failures. President Bush recognized this failure when he acknowledged in an October 11, 2001 press conference that we should not have just left after the military objective had been achieved in Afghanistan.

History has not judged us well. Nor have the people of the region.

But, Madam Chair, Medecins Sans Frontieres warns us today as we speak that Iran, Pakistan, and Tajikistan are facing desperate humanitarian situations as well. The entire region has become one great humanitarian crisis.

Page 27

I've visited the refugee camps in the Pakistan region. I've spoken to women from all the different ethnic groups. I've had to plead for plastic for one woman and an extension on space in the refugee camp for another. The things that we take for granted over here are life and death issues for the women and their children over there in the camps.

I asked the women in New Shamshatoo camp, do you know what capitalism is? Do you know what Communism is?

They shook their heads.

They didn't know about global politics and super power conflicts.

But they did know about bombs . . .

They knew about war . . . They knew about men fighting . . .

They knew about their children dying . . .

They knew about trying to defend themselves from cruel men . . .

They knew about trying to defend their children . . .

Page 28

And they knew they wanted more from life for themselves and their country than they are getting now.

That's the legacy we left there in Afghanistan when we exited the scene as quickly and unceremoniously as the Soviets that we had repelled.

And look at what we are doing now.

Madam Chair, the BBC reported in the last few days that our cluster bomb munitions are almost indistinguishable from the food canisters that we are dropping.

Madam Chair, how in the world can a 300 billion dollar a year military machine not see to it that the food packets and the bomblets from the cluster bombs they are dropping are not the same color?

Is it that they really just don't care?

Because that is what is fast becoming the conclusion throughout the world. Many people are now concluding that we really don't care about the innocent people in Afghanistan.

Madam Chair, we must care.

Page 29

And the world must see that we care.

We must solve the humanitarian crisis in Afghanistan and the surrounding regions urgently.

We must help put an end to the human rights abuses in Afghanistan.

It is not our place to decide who will be the next ruler of Afghanistan. And we certainly shouldn't be supporting any group that doesn't respect the rights of women.

Our role must be to promote democracy.

Through their own process of Loya Jirga, the Afghan people are perfectly capable of deciding their own fate. The United States role ought to be that of an honest broker to facilitate an authentic Afghani Loya Jirga that will lead the Afghan people into peace and dominion over their own land and resources.

Thank you, Madam Chair for calling this important hearing and I look forward to hearing today's witnesses.

Ms. MCKINNEY. I would also like to submit for the record a statement

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Without objection.

Page 30

Ms. MCKINNEY [continuing]. By The Feminist Majority which is testimony that would have been given by Eleanor Smeal if she had been able to be here today.

[The information referred to follows:]

75925a.eps

75925b.eps

75925c.eps

75925d.eps

75925e.eps

Ms. MCKINNEY. I would like to thank you Madam Chair for calling this important hearing, and I look forward to hearing from witnesses today.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you very much.

I am so pleased to recognize the real Subcommittee Chairman, Mr. Smith, who headed this Subcommittee for many hears.

Page 31

Mr. SMITH. Madam Chair, thank you very much. And I want to thank you for your very strong statement and associate myself with your remarks.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you.

Mr. SMITH. You have comprehensively laid out the issue that we are facing. Perhaps nowhere else in earth is gender apartheid practiced so egregiously and so maliciously than by the Taliban. It is as if hatred of women is at the core, certainly control, but hatred of women is at the core of what they do.

There is no question, as we all know, that the Taliban systematically and with impunity commits despicable acts of cruelty and violence. You know, as some of our very distinguished witnesses will point out, including Amnesty International, Taliban guards beat and humiliate women for defying their rules, even for acts as seemingly insignificant as showing one's ankle. The Taliban's Ministry for Preventing Vice and Fostering Virtue vigilantly enforces the restrictions on women; stoning, public executions, all of these barbaric behavior continue unabated by the Taliban. And I think it is important that the world know with even greater detail the kinds of extreme measures that have been taken against women by this repressive regime.

We also know the devastating impact that has occurred with regards to displaced personally, internally displaced as well as refugees who are now at dire risk of losing their lives, many have already, and hopefully the Administration, and I am sure it has stepped up to the plate, will give us additional details as to what is being done to mitigate that suffering as well.

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Again, I want to thank you for holding this hearing. I would ask that a statement be made a part of the record.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Without objection.

Mr. SMITH. But in the interest of time, again, I think it is very important that we document. You know, after the fall of the Third Reich when there was thoughts given to burning down the terrible concentration camps, Eisenhower, in his wisdom, said, ''No, preserve it so that all will see what brutality occurred here.'' This hearing and this kind of systematic documentation of these abuses hopefully will reveal to the world just how horrific this behavior is and why it must be stopped, and replaced with a democracy.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you so much, Mr. Smith.

And now I pleased to yield to Mr. Pitts for his opening remarks.

Mr. PITTS. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and thank you for holding this timely and important hearing on the Afghan people and the Taliban and the struggle for freedom.

As has been clearly documented, the people of Afghanistan have suffered terribly under the Taliban regime that claimed that it would make the nation a place of security and safety for the people. There has been no safety for ethnic minorities. Instead there have been massacres conducted against them.

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Contrary to Taliban claims, there has been no safety or dignity restored for women. Instead there is increased exploitation, prostitution, more women begging than anytime before the Soviet invasion. The Taliban claim that they restored peace and security, but women are not allowed outside their homes because of security concerns. The Taliban took away women's rights to education, to employment. Yet the Prophet Mohammed's first employer was a female. The contradictions in the Taliban's claims are rife. The tragic irony is that the only people for whom the Taliban have made Afghanistan safe are bin Laden and his terrorists.

It is vital that our nation restore our credibility in the eyes of the people of Afghanistan and the surrounding region. We must tell the people of Afghanistan that even though our government abandoned them after their war with Russia and their loss of at least 1.5 million lives, the American people have not forgotten their sacrifice.

The people of Afghanistan need to know that the international community is clearly aware that their suffering is caused by the Taliban, and that regime's wasting of the tremendous resources of the nation and people of Afghanistan.

The Taliban have not provided the people of Afghanistan with basic necessities, such as food and shelter, but have increased their suffering so that more people than ever are starving, freezing and dying from easily preventable medical problems.

The Taliban callously allow the Afghani people to die. It is the international community and aid organizations who have given food and medicine, who have helped build wells and shelters. The Taliban and its commitment to conflict has used the resources of the Afghan nation for its own selfish and destructive aims.

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Numerous reports and analysis reflect that the battle in which we currently are engaged is not only a military battle, but also a battle to win the hearts and minds of the people of Afghanistan. We cannot let the Taliban and Osama bin Laden win the battle by effectively spreading the propaganda that the United States will again abandon the Afghan people.

Key steps in combatting the Taliban's claims against the United States and our taking the offensive are to increase our ability to get more accurate information to the people, increase our humanitarian assistance to the suffering refugees and internally displaced people, and clearly and deliberately support the Loya Jirga.

Some governmental and extra-governmental bodies around the world have their plans for the people of Afghanistan. All of these bodies, however, seek to impose their own views on the Afghan people. History clearly shows that this will never work. The people of Afghanistan need to be free to choose their own leaders.

The convening of a Loya Jirga, our a Grand Assembly, so that the Afghan people can come together and coordinate their plans for their own government is the only way to bring lasting peace and stability to Afghanistan.

A State Department poll 3 months ago showed that the Afghan people overwhelmingly support holding a Loya Jirga, which is the traditional Afghan method of national reconciliation. It is vital that the United States people and government actively support the work of His Majesty, the former King of Afghanistan and the United Front/Northern Afghanistan in coordinating the Loya Jirga. A new structure has been formed by the Afghan people which seeks to restore peace and stability in Afghanistan under the symbolic leadership of His Majesty and the Supreme Council for Unity of Afghanistan.

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Madam Chairwoman, there is an urgency to these matters. News reports detail thousands of Pakistanis lining up at the borders to join the jihad of the Taliban against the forces of freedom. Our nation must work with the Afghan people to combat the scourge of humanity, the terrorists, so that Afghanis and Americans and the rest of the world can live in peace.

I look forward to hearing our distinguished witnesses this afternoon.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Pitts follows:]

PREPARED STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE JOSEPH R. PITTS, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF PENNSYLVANIA

Madam Chairwoman, thank you for holding this timely and important hearing on The Afghan People vs. The Taliban: The Struggle for Freedom Intensifies. As has been clearly documented, the people of Afghanistan have suffered terribly under the Taliban regime that claimed it would make the nation a place of security and safety for the people. There has been no safety for ethnic minorities. Instead there have been massacres conducted against them. Contrary to Taliban claims, there has been no safety or dignity restored for women. Instead there is increased prostitution and more women begging than anytime before the Soviet invasion. The Taliban claim that they restored peace and security, but women were not allowed outside their homes because of security concerns. The Taliban took away women's rights to education and employment, yet the Prophet Mohammed's first employer was a female. The contradictions in the Taliban's claims are rife. The tragic irony is that the only people for whom the Taliban have made Afghanistan safe are Bin Laden and his terrorists.

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It is vital that our nation restore our credibility 'in the eyes of the people of Afghanistan and the surrounding region. We must tell the people of Afghanistan that even though our government abandoned them after their war with Russia and their loss of at least 1.5 million lives, the American people have not forgotten their sacrifice. The people of Afghanistan need to know that the international community is clearly aware that their suffering is caused by the Taliban and this regime's wasting of the tremendous resources of the nation and people of Afghanistan. The Taliban have not provided the people of Afghanistan with basic necessities such as food and shelter, but have increased their suffering so that more people than ever are starving, freezing and also dying from easily preventable medical problems. The Taliban callously allow the Afghan people to die. It is the international community and aid organizations who have given food and medicine, who have helped build wells and shelters. The Taliban, in its commitment to conflict, has used the resources of the Afghan nation for its own selfish and destructive aims.

Numerous reports and analyses reflect that the battle in which we Currently are engaged is not only a military war, but also a battle to win the hearts and minds of the people of Afghanistan. We cannot let the Taliban and 0sarna bin Laden win the battle by effectively spreading the propaganda that the United States will again abandon the Afghan people. Key steps in combating the Taliban's claims against the United States and our taking the offensive are to increase our ability to get accurate information to the people, increase our humanitarian assistance to the suffering refugees and internally displaced people, and clearly and deliberately support the Loya Jirga.

Various governmental and extra-governmental bodies around the world have their plans for the people of Afghanistan. All of these bodies, however, seek to impose their own views on the Afghan people. History clearly shows that this will never work. The people of Afghanistan need to be free to choose their own leaders. The convening of a Loya Jirga, or a Grand Assembly, so that the Afghan people can come together and coordinate their plans for their own government is the only way to bring lasting peace and stability to Afghanistan. A State Department poll three months ago showed the Afghan people overwhelnuingly support holding a Loya Jirga, a Grand Assembly which is the traditional Afghan method of national reconciliation. It is vital that the United States people and government actively support the work of His Majesty the former King of Afghanistan and the United Front/Northern Afghanistan in coordinating the Loya Jirga. A new structure has been formed by the Afghan people which seeks to restore peace and stability in Afghanistan under the symbolic leadership of His Majesty and The Supreme Council for Unity of Afghanistan.

Page 37

Madame Chairwoman, there is an urgency to these matters. News reports detail thousands of Pakistanis lining up at the borders to join the jihad of the Taliban against the forces of freedom. Our nation must work with the Afghan people to combat the scourge of humanity, the terrorists, so that Afghans, Americans, and the rest of the world can live in peace.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you so much, Mr. Pitts.

Mr. Rohrabacher of California?

Mr. ROHRABACHER. Thank you so much. I remember during the Afghan war with the Soviet Union, that the Russians droppedwell, they are bombs. They are little, sort of trick bombs that were designed to look like butterflies, so that when children picked them up their hands would be blown off. And these little bombs were designed that way so that the families of Afghan would be so maimed that they would have to take care of their own young people, that they would not be able then to spend the time fighting with the occupation forces.

Let me just say that Ms. McKinney is a good friend of mine, but I think we live in a wonderful country that even if there is a chance that we are dropping a bomb that could be mistaken for something else, we warn the people that it might be dangerous, and that is not a sign that we do not care.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Ms. McKinney

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Mr. ROHRABACHER. That is a sign that we do care.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. If you would like to yield a second.

Ms. MCKINNEY. Dana, we spent $300 million a year on a military enterprise that cannot produce at least a food packet in a color

Mr. ROHRABACHER. We have been at war

Ms. MCKINNEY [continuing]. Different from

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Mr. Rohrabacher. Thank you, Ms. McKinney. Mr. Rohrabacher is giving his statement.

Mr. ROHRABACHER. I am reclaiming my time. I would just say if you take a look, we have been at war for 30 days. I am sure we did not know that we would be in Afghanistan dropping food containers to people who were subjugated by an enemy.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Ms. McKinney.

Ms. MCKINNEY. Unfortunately, Dana

Mr. ROHRABACHER. If I could

Ms. MCKINNEY [continuing]. There is really no excuse

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Mr. ROHRABACHER. Cynthia, if I could

Ms. MCKINNEY [continuing]. Forthere really is no excuse

Mr. ROHRABACHER. Cynthia, if I can have my time.

Ms. MCKINNEY. I am not taking your time.

Mr. ROHRABACHER. Cynthia.

Ms. MCKINNEY. I am just getting

Mr. ROHRABACHER. Yes, you are, Cynthia.

Ms. MCKINNEY [continuing]. Additional time.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Ms. McKinney, we will give you 1 minute to continue and then I will recognize Mr. Rohrabacher to finish his remarks.

Ms. MCKINNEY. Thank you. See, I am not taking your time, Dana. I would never take your time.

Mr. ROHRABACHER. All right.

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Ms. MCKINNEY. But there is no excuse for us not being able to at least put the food packets in orange and theand if the cluster bombswe should not even be using cluster bombs to start with. The Humans Rights Watch has said today that we should not be dropping cluster bombs in Afghanistan.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you, Ms. McKinney.

Mr. Rohrabacher.

Mr. ROHRABACHER. Now if I could reclaim my time.

I think it is wonderful that we are dropping food packages. I am sure we had no idea 6 weeks ago that there might be starvation going on in Afghanistan, a country that has been occupied by our potential enemy. The fact that we dropped food package at all says good things about us. The fact that we go out of our way to warn people that, watch out, because there are some other things that are part of our war machine that might be mistaken, it says something good about us.

And the fact is the Russians and almost every other power of the world in the situation where 6,000 of their own people had been slaughtered would not be taking such precautions with the people of the country that offered the base, the home base that was used to slaughter our own people It just would not happen.

And again, in terms of cluster bombs, I would hope that cluster bombs kills many Taliban leaders and Taliban soldiers as they possibly can. There is nothing that we could do better for the people of Afghanistan than to kill as many Taliban soldiers who have been repressing them and murdering them as they have been.

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So let usif it takes cluster bombs, that is fine. If it takes, you know, Samari swords, or pistols, I do not care what it is, let us get rid of these Taliban because they are Nazis, they are the Muslim Nazis, and all the good Muslims of the world understand that. They are not associated with the Taliban, and that this is aimed at these human rights abusers.

Now, we have made a lot about women's rights here today, and rightfully so, because obviously the Taliban are to women what the Nazis were to Jews, but let us also recognize that the Taliban have been murderous and oppressive to everyone in Afghanistan. Anyone who did not become part of their insidious little cult became a victim of this cult, and freedom of the press and freedom of speech was not even thought about, much less freedom of religion.

So what we have here is a monstrous regime which for the last 5 years we could have done something about, and we did not. And the people of Afghanistan are our greatest allies in this endeavor to free them and to free the world from this monstrous influence that is going on and centered in Afghanistan.

You know, the Taliban, that terrorist regime, and bin Laden have killed many more Afghan than they have Americans, and they have a much smaller population. So when our hearts ache for this 6,000 Americans that were slaughtered in New York, let us remember that those poor people of Afghanistan proportionally have suffered way beyond what we have suffered, and they have been calling out for us for help for all of these years, and it took the death of our people before we offered this help to those brave people who I might say defeated the Russians, and then again we did walk away, and let us not forget that.

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So today, I appreciate the fact that we are holding this hearing, and commend you, Madam Chairman.

But there is one other issue that I would like to bring up that has not been covered, and it is a very touchy issue and I would like our witnesses to talk about it, and that is, the Taliban not only have served as a monstrous force in killing and oppressing their own people, and permitting their country to be used as a source for heroin and terrorism around the world. This is not Islam.

Number one, we expect Muslim leaders around the world to step up and be counted in this fight against evil, and not to keep their mouths shut simply because this evil is posing as a force of Islam.

And number two, I think it is about time that we understand that, yes, why does this regime hate women, this regime that hates women also, also has been involved in the worse type of molestation of children in Afghanistan. Young girls in areas that are captured by the Taliban that are not pro-Taliban areas are sent off to be served as prostitutes for other parts of the gulf. This is a disgrace and nobody has talked about it. Young boys have been molested by the Moula leaders of the Taliban movement themselves. This needs to be talked about.

And the people of the Muslim world, when they are trying to analyze what is good and what is bad that is going on, and is the United States a force for evil or justice need to take these issues into consideration, and we need to hear from them.

So I am proud to stand behind our President. We do not have a perfectthere is no such thing as a perfect war or a perfect battle. Mistakes will be made and the containers will be wrapped the same, and problems. This happened in World War II, I am sure, where they had lot more time than 6 weeks. But we can be proud, we are trying to rid the world of an evil force, and we are trying to do what is right by the people of Afghanistan, and I think we have every reason to hold our heads high, and to continue and do everything we can to win.

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Thank you very much.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you very much.

Mr. Hoeffel?

Mr. HOEFFEL. Thank you, Madam Chairman. I am not a Member of your Subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to be here.

No opening statement except to compliment the Chair for holding this hearing and thank the witnesses, and ask them to address, if they could, when they are talking about what comes next for Afghanistan, whether we should be thinking about a broad rebuilding, development program along the lines of the Marshall Plan after the second world war. That was a $13 billion, 4-year recovery plan that helped 14 countries. That 13 billion would be about 100 billion in today's dollars, a very achievable figure, particularly over 3 or 4 years.

Of course, the Marshall Plan was rebuilding economies that had existed in a modern state before the second world war, and the countries in Central Asia and the Middle East are far different. The economies are not nearly as developed, so the challenges are much greater. But in thinking about what comes next, let us think on a big scale, and I would be delighted to hear whatever the witnesses could address on that score.

Thank you.

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Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you, and welcome. You are always welcome to our Subcommittee.

Mr. HOEFFEL. Thank you.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Ms. Davis.

Ms. DAVIS. Thank you, Madam Chairman. I also am not a Member of the Subcommittee, but appreciate the opportunity to be here, and I just thank you for holding the hearing, and look forward to hearing from the distinguished panelists.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. We thank you so much for being with us. You are always invited.

Mr. Delahunt. Unfortunately, we could never get rid of him. [Laughter.]

He is always there.

Ms. MCKINNEY. Madam Chair, we do not want to get rid of Mr. Delahunt.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. All right, I forget. I forgot.

Ms. MCKINNEY. We love you, Mr. Delahunt.

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Mr. DELAHUNT. Well, I thank Ms. McKinney for coming to my defense.

Ms. MCKINNEY. I love you to, Dana, do not worry.

Mr. DELAHUNT. Well, I guess I should not say very much at all then. [Laughter.]

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Well, you know that

Mr. DELAHUNT. I should quit while I am ahead.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN [continuing]. I am only kidding. I am only kidding.

Mr. DELAHUNT. I know you are kidding.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. We love your opening statements.

Mr. DELAHUNT. I am not going to have an opening statement, but I just would commend Mr. Hoeffel who, I think, makes eminent good sense about our experience in the aftermath of World War II. Unfortunately, and not just in Afghanistan, we have disengaged the most inopportune times, and I think it is very, very important that we take this tragedy of September 11th, and reexamine and reassess our foreign policy and our willingness to be a super power in every sense of that word. Not just militarily, but morally, spiritually, and in terms of a voice for democratic values and ideals, and respect for different cultures, and respect for the dignity of sovereign nations elsewhere.

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So Mr. Hoeffel, thank you for your remarks.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you very much. We thank all of our Members for being here, and we thank those who are not Members for coming. And if you have full statements to be entered into the record, they will be placed without objection, and any other Members who were not here today, we will enter their statements into the record as well.

Today, we are joined once again by Mr. Lorne Craner, Assistant Secretary of State for the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor.

Prior to his appointment his past June, Lorne served as the President of the International Republican Institute, which conducts programs outside the U.S. to promote democracy and the rule of law. Leading up to this position, he served as the Director of Asian Affairs at the National Security Council, and Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Legislative Affairs. However, prior to that tour of duty in the executive branch, he walked the corridors of the Hill as an advisor for Congressman Jim Colby and Senator John McCain.

Mr. Craner is accompanied by Jeffrey Lundstead, Senior Advisor and Afghanistan Coordinator for the Bureau of the South Asian Affairs.

Previously Jeff served as the Director of the Office of Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Bangladesh at the same bureau. Throughout the last 20 years, he has served in various capacities in U.S. embassies throughout South Asia, and was the country officer for Sudan in the early nineties.

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Thank you both for joining us today. We will enter your statement in full in the record, and we ask you to briefly summarize them. We do expect a series of votes soon so we hope that we can do your testimony and a series of questions before we break.

Mr. CRANER. Okay.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you, Lorne.

STATEMENT OF LORNE W. CRANER, ASSISTANT SECRETARY, BUREAU OF DEMOCRACY, HUMAN RIGHTS AND LABOR, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE

Mr. CRANER. Madam Chair, Ms. McKinney, thank you for agreeing to hold this hearing.

Under Taliban rule, Afghanistan has one of the worst human rights records in the world. Universally accepted human rights, particularly those of women, are virtually nonexistent as the Taliban continues to commit numerous serious and systemic abuses.

The Taliban, which controls up to 90 percent of Afghanistan, has imposed its own radical interpretation of Islamic law.

Summary killings are common in Taliban-held territories. Since September 11, there have been rumors of increased summary killings of potential Taliban opponents and even of persons perceived of being neutral in the struggle with the United Front/Northern Alliance.

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The human rights of women and girls, ethnic and religious minorities, and indeed all who do not share the Taliban's increasingly radical interpretation of Islam, continue to be systemically denied by the Taliban.

The Secretary of State has identified Taliban-ruled Afghanistan as a country of particular concern. The rigid policies adopted by the Taliban have had a chilling effect on adherence of other faiths and in particular on Afghan Muslims who do not accept the Taliban's interpretation of Islam. Enforcement of Taliban edicts are most pronounced in the cities, especially in Kabul.

The Taliban rely on a religious police force, which Congresswoman Ros-Lehtinen referred to, the Ministry for the Promotion of Virtue and the Suppression of Vice, to enforce rules on such matters as appearance, dress, employment, access to medical care, behavior, religious practices and freedom of religion.

There is an ongoing conflict between the Taliban, who subscribe to a radical interpretation of the Hanafi school of Sunni Islam, and Afghanistan's Shi'a, most of who are Hazaras. In September 1998 and April 1999, over 500 people were reportedly killed in the struggle for control of the City of Bamiyan. The UN has reported that after retaking the town of Yakaolang in January 2001, the Taliban massacred at least 100 Shiite Muslim civilians. However, U.S. government sources believe this figure should be closer to 300. This massacre followed the May 2000 massacre at the Robatak Pass of some 31 Hazaras; 26 of whom were identified as civilians.

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In early August 2001, the Taliban arrested 24 members of an international relief agency on charges of proselytizing. The Afghan authorities were threatening to execute the agency's Afghan employees for allegedly converting to Christianity from Islam. And as we all know, the eight foreign workers continue to be detained.

The Taliban's war against Afghan culture has even extended to the flying of kites, the playing of chess, the possession of dolls and even stuffed animal toys as violations of their understanding of the Islamic injunction to make no image of a living thing.

Along those same lines, we understand that Taliban has also required that medical texts be reduced to straightforward narratives, without diagrams or photographs of the body or any of its part.

Since coming to power in 1996, the Taliban has shown itself willing to carry out massacres, usually along ethnic lines, to establish and maintain control over various parts of the country.

In August 1998, they captured Mazar-e Sharif, and murdered nearly 3,000 civilians. In June, to strengthen its hold on the providences, Taliban forces carried out a ''scorched earth'' program, burning perhaps 5,000 structures, including houses, a clinic, mosques and a madrassa. The June program also entailed the killing of numerous fleeing civilians as well as those too ill or too infirm to flee.

Current conditions in Afghanistan make reporting of such activities by the Taliban difficult, but we do know of increased repression, as I mentioned, and increased murders.

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The promotion of human right, particularly the human rights of women and girls, remains a high priority for us in Afghanistan.

When the Taliban took over Kabul in 1996, they began to enforce a series of discriminatory social strictures. The Taliban forbade women to work outside the home. They have stated that widows could work outside the home to support their families, but even this benefit is granted sporadically. In urban areas, women are forbidden to leave home unless accompanied by a male relative. Particularly in cities, women must wear the burqa. While many Afghan women wore the burqa before the Taliban took control, it is now part of a legally enforced dress code by the Taliban.

The Taliban also restrict education for girls, particularly in urban areas such as Kabul. Private home-based schools were ordered closed in Kabul. By some estimates, only 3 percent of Afghan girls have access to any form of primary education. Women and girls have access to medical services and some hospital in Kabul, but in practice, women are usually excluded from treatment by male physicians. The requirement that women be completely clothed when treated by a male medical personnel is clearly a severely limiting factor.

Promoting human rights in Afghanistan remains a high priority for U.S. diplomacy. Even before September 11th, we tried to keep the international spotlight focused on the Taliban's human rights abuses. At every opportunity, we have called on the Taliban to cease their persecution on the basis of religion, and to lift restricts on access to health care, employment and the education of women and girls.

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In February, the State Department again documented the Taliban's human rights abuses in our human rights report. The Report on International Religious Freedom released last week again details the gross violations of religious liberty by the Taliban regime. In April, the U.S. and other nations introduced and adopted a resolution at the UN Commission on Human Rights, strongly condemning human rights in Afghanistan, particularly discrimination against women and girls.

During the fiscal year 20001, we have provided over $170 million in aid for Afghans. Additionally, there is 165,000 tons of wheat from the U.S. currently on ships headed to the region. President Bush recently announced an additional $320 million in humanitarian assistance for the Afghan people. This assistance helps support the weakest and most vulnerable Afghans, women and girls, and ethnic minorities. Last year, the Department provided $3.8 million specifically for programs targeted at Afghan women and girl refugees, and USAID provided an additional $1 million. We expect to provide at least this amount this year.

The U.S. remains committed to improving human rights situation in Afghanistan. We have called for a broad-based, representative, multi-ethnic government, one that accepts international norms and practices, particularly regarding human rights, particularly religious freedom, and issues concerning women, and that facilitates safe delivery of humanitarian and economic assistance. We are working with other countries and the UN to bring about this change.

And I would ask your indulgence if I could turn for a moment to Jeff

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Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Yes.

Mr. CRANER [continuing]. To outline some of the plans we have.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Please do.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Craner follows:]

PREPARED STATEMENT OF LORNE W. CRANER, ASSISTANT SECRETARY, BUREAU OF DEMOCRACY, HUMAN RIGHTS AND LABOR, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE

''People who had the power to leaveyoung men and womenfled. Old men and children who couldn't escape were all killed. At night, I came down and buried the people with my hands. Most of the dead bodies were found in the mosque, but some were found around and inside their homes.''

Comments of a refugee from a Taliban attack on Sar-e Qazu, Bamiyan valleySummer 2001.

OVERVIEW:

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Afghanistan is experiencing its twenty-third year of civil war and instability. There is no functioning central government; no nationally-recognized constitution, and no independent judiciary. The Taliban, which controls up to ninety percent of the country, has imposed its own radical interpretation of Islamic Law.

Summary killings are common in Taliban-held territory. Political and other extra-judicial murders, summary executions and deaths in custody occur. Since September 11, there have been rumors of increased summary killings of potential Taliban opponents and even of persons perceived of being ''neutral'' in the struggle with the United Front/Northern Alliance.

Lack of Religious Freedom and Ethnic Tolerance

The Secretary of State has identified Taliban-ruled Afghanistan a ''country of particular concern.'' The rigid policies adopted by the Taliban have had a chilling effect on adherents of other faiths and in particular on Afghan Muslims who do not accept the Taliban's interpretation of Islam. Enforcement of Taliban edicts are most pronounced in the cities, especially in Kabul; less so in rural areas, where local customs are more prevalent, and where there may be less of a Taliban presence.

The Taliban rely on a religious police force under the control of the Ministry for the Promotion of Virtue and the Suppression of Vice (PVSV) to enforce rules on such matters as appearance, dress, employment, access to medical care, behavior, religious practice, and freedom of expression.

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In September 1999, the Taliban issued decrees that forbade non-Muslims from building places of worship but allowed them to worship at existing sites. The decrees also ordered non-Muslims to identify their houses by placing a yellow cloth on their rooftops and prohibited non-Muslims from living in the same residences as Muslims. On May 22, 2001, the PVSV proposed that all Hindus be made to wear an identifying mark on their clothing to distinguish them from Muslims. This has been revised to requiring that all Hindus carry special identification cards at all times and show whenever needed. Taliban officials claim that the plan is an effort to safeguard Hindus from harassment from the religious police.

In areas they control, the Taliban has decreed that all Muslims must take part in five daily prayers. Those who are observed not praying at appointed times or who are late attending prayer are subject to punishment, including severe beatings. PVSV members in Kabul reportedly have stopped persons on the street and quizzed them to determine if they knew how to recite various Koranic prayers.

Licensing and registration of religious groups do not appear to be required by the authorities in any part of the country. The small number of non-Muslim residents who remain in the country may generally practice their faith in private, but are prohibited from an attempt to convince Muslims to convert. Conversion from Islam is considered apostasy and is punishable by death.

There is an ongoing conflict between the Taliban, who subscribe to a radical interpretation of the Hanafi school of Sunni Islam, and Afghanistan's Shi'a, most of whom are Hazaras. In September 1998 and April 1999, over 500 persons were reportedly killed in the struggle for control of the city of Bamiyan. The United Nations has reported that, after retaking the town of Yakaolang in January 2001, the Taliban massacred at least 100 Shiite Muslim civilians (USG sources believe this figure to be closer to 300). This massacre followed the May 2000 massacre at the Robatak Pass of some 31 Ismaili Shi'a Hazaras (26 of which were positively identified as civilians).

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In early August 2001 the Taliban arrested 24 members of an international relief agency16 Afghans, 4 Germans, 2 Americans, and 2 Australianson charges of proselytizing. Taliban authorities were threatening to execute the agency's Afghan employees for allegedly converting to Christianity from Islam. The eight foreign workers continue to be detained.

This February the Taliban ordered the destruction of all statues in Afghanistan, claiming that ''Islamic beliefs'' condone such actions. Afghan museums contain ancient and culturally priceless statuary from the Greek, Buddhist, and other eras of the country's rich and varied history. The Taliban claimed to have destroyed statues in these collections and elsewhere. Two massive second-century statues of the Buddha, located in the central province of Bamiyan and considered among the world's great cultural treasures, were totally destroyed in March 2001. This war against Afghan culture has extended to the Taliban forbidding the flying of kites, the playing of chess, possession of dolls and stuffed animal toys (as violations of their understanding of the Islamic injunction to ''make no image of a living thing''). Along these same lines, we understand that the Taliban has required that medical texts be reduced to straight-forward narratives, without diagrams or photographs of the body or any of its parts.

Rule by the SwordTaliban Massacres

Since coming to power in 1996, the Taliban has shown itself willing to carry out massacres, usually along ethnic lines, to establish and maintain its control over parts of the country.

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In August 1998, they captured Mazar-i Sharif, a major city in north-central Afghanistan, and murdered nearly 3,000 civilians. Most were Hazaras, who, as Shias, were characterized as ''infidels'' by the region's Taliban governor Mullah Manon Niazi. In January 2001, Taliban forces recaptured Yakaolang district in Bamiyan province and summarily executed approximately 170 male Hazara civilians.

In June, to strengthen its hold on the province, Taliban forces carried out a ''scorched earth'' program, burning perhaps 5,000 structures, including houses, a clinic, mosques and a madrassa. As one returning villager noted, ''there was nothing left.'' The June program also entailed the killing of numerous fleeing civilians as well as those too ill or infirm to flee.

Current conditions in Afghanistan make reporting of similar activities by the Taliban difficult, but given the history and proclivities of the group, we should not be surprised to learn of similar activities, perhaps even more brutal, in the ensuing weeks.

Womens' and Girls' Rights

The promotion of human rights, particularly the human rights of women and girls, is a high priority for us in Afghanistan today. Afghan women traditionally suffered disadvantages in many areas of Afghan society prior to the civil war. However a limited but growing number, primarily in urban areas, worked outside the home in nontraditional roles. There were thousands of female lawyers, government officials and doctors in Kabul in the early 1990's.

Despite the efforts of the U.S. Government, the UN and the NGO community, the situation of women and girls in Afghanistan remains largely unchanged and indeed has worsened as Taliban has intensified its enforcement of its radical beliefs.

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When the Taliban took over Kabul in 1996, they began to enforce a series of discriminatory social strictures, many of which impacted women and their position in society. The Taliban forbade women to work outside the home, but soon allowed exceptions for female doctors and nurses in restricted circumstances. They have stated that widows could work outside the home to support their families, but this benefit is granted sporadically. In urban areas, women were forbidden to leave home unless accompanied by a male relative. Particularly in cities, when women go out they must wear a traditional long robe, the burqa, covering them from head to toe and obscuring their vision. While many Afghan women wore the burqa before they took control, it is now part of a legally enforced dress code decreed by the Taliban. (The Taliban also enforce a dress code for men, which includes an obligatory wearing of beards of a certain length. Men who violate the dress code risk beatings, imprisonment and religious indoctrination courses, women risk being stoned, though more often the male elders of their family are beaten.)

The Taliban restrict education for girls, particularly in urban areas such as Kabul. Private home-based schools were ordered closed in Kabul. By some estimates, only 3 percent of Afghan girls have access to any form of primary education. Nearly one-quarter of male children receive education (albeit this is often limited to memorization of the Koran in Arabic, not a language widely spoken Afghanistan). Women and girls have access to medical services and most hospitals in Kabul, but in practice women are usually excluded from treatment by male physicians. The requirement that women be completely clothed when treated by male medical personnel is clearly a severely limiting factor.

The Taliban's unwillingness to tolerate educated women is reflected in the country's infant mortality figures. In Afghanistan, over 150 of each 1,000 children die before the age of five. In Pakistan, the number is 80; in India it is 63, in Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan 73 children of every thousand die before the age of five.

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What the USG is Doing

Promoting human rights in Afghanistan, particularly religious freedom and the rights of women and girls, is a high priority for U.S. diplomacy. Even before September 11th, we kept the international spotlight focused on the Taliban's human rights abuses. At every opportunity, we have called on the Taliban to cease its persecution on the basis of religion, and to lift its restrictions on access to health care, employment, and education of women and girls. We have raised human rights questions with other factions as well. In February, the State Department again documented in its human rights report human rights abuses in Afghanistan. This year's Report on International Religious Freedom again details the gross violations of religious liberty by the Taliban regime. In April, the United States and other nations introduced and adopted a resolution at the UN Commission on Human Rights which strongly condemned human rights abuse in Afghanistan, particularly discrimination against women and girls.

Along with working for improvements in human rights in Afghanistan, we continue to support the Afghan people through our humanitarian assistance programs. The United States is the largest provider of humanitarian aid to Afghans. During Fiscal Year 2001, we have provided over $170 million in aid for Afghans. Additionally there is 165,000 tons of wheat from the U.S. currently on ships headed to the region. The President recently announced an additional 320 million dollars in humanitarian assistance for the Afghan people. This assistance helps support the weakest and the most vulnerable Afghanswomen and girls and ethnic minorities. Last year, the Department provided $3.8 million specifically for programs targeted at Afghan women and girl refugees, and USAID provided an additional $1 million. We expect to provide similar amounts this year.

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The United States remains committed to improving the human rights situation in Afghanistan. We have called for a broad-based, representative, multi-ethnic government, one that accepts international norms and practices, particularly regarding human rights in general, but in particular religious freedom and issues concerning women, and facilitates safe delivery of humanitarian and economic assistance. We are working with other countries and the United Nations to bring about change.

STATEMENT OF JEFFREY J. LUNDSTEAD, SENIOR ADVISOR AND AFGHANISTAN COORDINATOR, BUREAU OF SOUTH ASIAN AFFAIRS, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE

Mr. LUNDSTEAD. Madam Chairperson, Ms. McKinney, thank you.

Since I was asked to join this hearing at a late moment, I do not have a prepared statement, but I would like to comment on two subjects which came up in the statements by the various Members.

The first is the preparations for a political alternative to the Taliban. We are in constant contact with Afghans around the world, including a number of the witnesses who will be appearing afterwards, who are good friends of mine, to encourage and support them in their efforts to build a political structure to take over when the Taliban are gone.

We do not tell them who should run Afghanistan. That is for Afghans to decide. But we do set out principles that we think any follow-on political structure will have to encompass. These include:

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It must be broad-based, and representative of Afghan. It must include religious minorities, all ethnic groups in the country. It must rid Afghan territory of terrorism and supporters of terrorism. It will have to respect human rights, especially the rights of women and girls, including also ethnic and religious minorities. It will have to take strenuous efforts to rid the country of the problem of narcotics, and it should seek friendly relations with its neighbors.

These are the principles we lay out day after day. I am happy to say that most of the Afghan contacts that we have agree with those principles. That is what they are working for, and that is what we are working for.

Mr. Hoeffel raised the question of economic reconstruction for Afghanistan. The President did say in his press conference that Afghanistan will need to be helped after this effort against the Taliban and al-Qaeda was over. The Administration has been working on this issue for quite some time. We are developing a plan for reconstruction for the future of Afghanistan. It will involve many countries, many institutions. It will be a multi-year effort.

I cannot give you a figure, but the goal is to see a stable prosperous Afghanistan which can deal with all those issues which I outlined before, because there is a connection here. If we have a stable, prosperous Afghanistan, if it is a representative government, if people have a stake in their society, then they will not support terrorism and will not have to grow drugs and they will not be oppressing each other.

Thank you.

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Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you very much. We appreciate it.

I am going to begin our questions now, and we expect a series of vote at 4:30, and I know that one of the panelists in the second private panel, from Amnesty International, needs to leave, so we will begin with him when we begin that series.

We have seen videos and we have received information about the use of child soldiers by the Taliban. Can you elaborate on this practice? Has the recruitment intensified in the aftermath of U.S. military strikes? And what have we done in the U.S. to ensure that Pakistan, for example, does not afford the Taliban the facilities to train these children for battle?

Mr. LUNDSTEAD. We have seen numerous reports that since the hostilities began that the Taliban are desperate for soldiers and are trying to get as many people as they can. I assume that includes taking children into the military.

With regard to Pakistan, Pakistan is cooperating with us in the campaign in Afghanistan. Pakistan is making strenuous efforts to close its borders, to prevent people from moving in. We are very gratified with that. Nonetheless, it is a 1200 mile border. It is the equivalent of a border from Chicago to Texas. They cannot shutdown every piece of that border.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you. Mr. Craner, if you have anything to add to that. We are adhering to the 5-minute question rule too, and I would like to tell our Members that.

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What steps is the Department taking to help ensure that women are included in the Rome process and in a future Afghan government? Can you confirm that the funds that the Department is allocating to NGOs promoting the development of a broad-based representative government in Afghanistan will include safeguards and requirements, ensuring a pivotal role for women and the issue of women's rights in these discussions?

Mr. LUNDSTEAD. Well, that fits very much into the principles for a future Afghan government that I was just mentioning. One of them isboth the broad-based part and the human rights part, both of those cover the participation of women. We have laid this out many times, that the structure that develops will have to have women's representation if we are to approve of it, and I think that has been heard.

Rome, for instance, has included Afghan women in its deliberations up till now, and I am sure it will in the future.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Mr. Craner?

Mr. CRANER. I think the short answer on the grants is that that is exactly among the things we want to see it go for so that we reach the objectives Jeff was talking about.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. And is the DRL Bureau considering allocating separate funds to support the process, and would the funds be used in the same manner as in the plan put forth by the South Asia Bureau in their transmittal letter of October 26? Are we asking allies to match U.S. contributions to the Rome process? And what has been the response from the international community?

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Mr. CRANER. DRL is considering a number of efforts that could aid both within Afghanistan, also in the surrounding countries on these issues. There will be a series of steps that are necessary to bring about our ultimate goal, and we will be involved, and I have no doubt, helping out on the funding and also on the advice of all those steps.

What you saw from South Asia is just the first, I think, of what you are going to be seeing.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you very much.

Ms. McKinney.

Ms. MCKINNEY. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Craner or Mr. Lundstead, has the United States publicly stated that human rights abusers or war criminals will not be allowed to participate in any future Afghan government?

Mr. LUNDSTEAD. I do not know if there has been a specific public statement to that effect, but the principles we have laid out for what an Afghan government should look like would exclude such people.

Ms. MCKINNEY. I did not hear it in the principles that you enunciated. You did speak to respect the human rights, but I did not hear a specific reference to the fact that human rights abusers or war criminals would not be allowed to participate in any future Afghan government.

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Mr. LUNDSTEAD. No, I think that is implicit in the idea that this will be a government that respects human rights. You cannot have abusers in a government that is respecting them.

Ms. MCKINNEY. Does that mean

Mr. LUNDSTEAD. I do not know if there has been a specific statement. I will take that under advisement and look into it.

Ms. MCKINNEY. Great. Thank you.

And if there has not been such a statement, do you think this Administration, or would you advocate making such a statement so that it will be not implicit, but explicit?

Mr. LUNDSTEAD. I would have to ask other people in the State Department what they think.

Ms. MCKINNEY. I understand. Thank you.

Did you want to say something, Lorne?

Mr. CRANER. No. I justit is something that we are talking to everybody that we talk to in Afghan about is if they expect to be part of the future of Afghanistan, that is not something that is going to be tolerated.

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Ms. MCKINNEY. Let me ask you about the specific organization of the Revolutionary Association of Women of Afghanistan.

Are theyhave they been talked to and received at the State Department? Are you familiar with them?

Mr. LUNDSTEAD. Yes, very much so. In fact, the witness who will be testifying later, I met about 2 weeks ago in my office, and I have met people from RAWA, other members of RAWA over the past 2 years, along with other Afghan women's groups. There are other groups in this area, and we have always met with them because they have a very important role to play.

Ms. MCKINNEY. Great. And you can remind me if we have made public statements about the role of women, not just in the discussions leading up to the government of Afghanistan, but also actually participating in meaningful positions inside the government?

Mr. LUNDSTEAD. Again, I would have to check on what public statements have been made.

Ms. MCKINNEY. Great. Gotcha.

I have got a couple of newspaper articles I would like some comments on. One is about huge demonstrations occurring across the world, and we had 20,000 people to demonstrate against the bombing in London, 30,000 in Berlin, 5,000 in Berne, 4,000 in Stutgaard. We have also had anti-U.S. bombing to take placeprotests to take place in Scotland, and in Australia, as well as those other countries that I have mentioned before.

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Do you think we are losing the public opinion war, and if so, why?

Mr. CRANER. I do notI do not think we are losing the public opinion war, and I do not think that the governments we are dealing with feel that we are. I understand, I am heading the DLR bureau, I am all for people demonstrating, but I do not think that the accurately reflect the totality of feeling in their countries.

I noticed youwas it 10,000 in Britain?

Ms. MCKINNEY. No.

Mr. CRANER. Twenty?

Ms. MCKINNEY. Twenty thousand in London.

Mr. CRANER. Having lived there, that is not a very large demonstration in London for some of these issues.

Ms. MCKINNEY. That is pretty big in America.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Ms. McKinney, if I could

Mr. CRANER. And finally, I would tell you

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Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN [continuing]. Ask you to yield for a second.

Ms. MCKINNEY. Sure.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. There is an interesting article here from the London Telegraph today that says, ''Afghans cheer as U.S. jets hit Taliban,'' and I would just like to share that with you.

Ms. MCKINNEY. Okay. Great.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. I think those are the people most affected.

Ms. MCKINNEY. Well, if we got into a battle about newspaper articles, we could also submit one that says that the Afghan people are stuck in their homes for fear of going out from the cluster bombs.

I have gotHuman Rights Watch issued a statement today, U.S. should stop using cluster bombs, and it gives an in depth analysis, citing the hazard to civilians.

What is the position thatin light of the criticismthat we are taking by using these cluster bombs? What is the position, Mr. Craner, that you are going to take as weon this particular issue on the continued use of cluster bombs, recognizing that cluster bombs were ruled out in 1995 in Bosnia?

Mr. CRANER. They were ruled out in 1995. They may have been ruled out in 1995 in Bosnia. They were used in Kosovo. I have not seen the statement by Human Rights Watch.

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Ms. MCKINNEY. It just came out today.

Mr. CRANER. Okay, yes, that is why I have not seen it because I was out of the building most of the day.

But the U.S. Government believes there is a legal basis to continue to use these weapons. I know it has been in the past a controversial issue, but they U.S. Government believes it has a legal basis to use these.

Ms. MCKINNEY.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you, Ms. McKinney, and we will return for a second round of questions.

Ms. MCKINNEY. Oh, we will.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. I am sorry, the 5 minutes are up.

Mr. Smith?

Mr. SMITH. Thank you very much, Madam Chairwoman, and again I want to thank our two distinguished witnesses for their testimony, for underscoring the fact that we are the largest provider of humanitarian aid to the Afghan people.

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And I was wondering if you could tell usobviously, food and medicines are absolutely essential, and the hope is that even that will accelerate and be expanded, and get to the people. I want to commend our pilots who are flying very dangerous trips each and every day to drop those important food stuffs to the people, and to allow them really to continue living. It is an operation lifeline if ever there was one, and our brave pilots and air crews are to be commended for that.

I would like to ask you, if you would, obviously, there is going to be other kinds of concerns for the people of Afghanistan as well, particularly the children. We have known that there is a great need for prosthetic devices. Obviously, the cutting off of hands and feet, an atrocious practice, routinely engaged in by the Taliban; post-traumatic stress disorder. Obviously, that may not seem like it should be important right now, but it seems to me the people we care so deeply about are going to have enormous emotional health problems that will manifest themselves.

We on this Committee time and again have documented that torture victims suffer immeasurable hurt and horror that lasts a lifetime. Maybe it cannot be rectified, but it can be mitigated. And I hope that the Department will look at that very carefully, as to how we can help these people with that, as well as with prosthetic devices going forward.

Obviously, some of this is a little bit further down the line, but hopefully we are thinking about that very carefully.

Mr. Secretary, did you want to comment on that?

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Mr. CRANER. Yes. We are already thinking about it. As Jeff indicated, this is going to be a huge effort, and that is why it is important that we involve not only other countries but also international organizations to help out, because it is going to be such athere is such trauma in that society and there is so much to be done, but we are already thinking about that far ahead.

Mr. SMITH. I do appreciate that.

Let me justyou know, obviously, we are all concerned about what a post-Taliban government would look like, and I share the views of the distinguished Chairlady of this Committee as to the importance of human rights, and again, Amnesty will testify later that they think it is central, as do I.

We know that Dr. Abdullah, the minister of foreign affairs of the Northern Alliance underscored their support, and I quote him,

''. . . for an institutional framework based on moderate Islam and democracy to embody human rights and fundamental freedoms of individuals, including those of women, political pluralism, devolution of power to local administration to local elections on a provential and lower levels.''

We need to keep in mind, however, that between 1992 and 1992, the Northern Alliance itself was responsible for human rights problems, and our hope is that there will be a major league lessons learned to preclude any kind of reactivation of that kind of behavior.

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Obviously, we are their allies, and perhaps you might want to comment on our hope that they will be faithful to a post-Taliban regime where human rights are central.

Mr. CRANER. Having lost power once, and having seen what has become of Afghanistan afterwards, I know that they understand the need for exactly what you were talking about, and that is, what we continue to underline to them, and especially in terms of current conduct, that our expectations are what your said.

Mr. SMITH. I do appreciate that.

And finally, just let meI read with great interest the International Religious Freedom Report because obviously this Committee and I, in particular, and people like Frank Wolfe are very concerned about that. And I would hope, and just would raise as an issue that some countries, like Saudi Arabia and Uzbakistan, about which I have had hearings myself, particularly in the area of the Helsinki Commission on Uzbakistan, for example, believe that they do rise to the level of countries where there is a particular interest by the United States. And I hope that we would in no way diminish our concern about human rights as we build this coalition of countries who are united against terrorism.

Mr. CRANER. A great deal of concern has been expressed to me about that, both from up here and from a lot of my former compatriots in the human rights and democracy organizations.

I think there is a fear that the U.S. will return to a 1950s to 1970s version of national security, where we stayed with some folks that we should not have till the bitter end, and it was a very bitter end, and afterwards people in the country were quite bitter in those countries.

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The people who are at the highest levels of this government lived through that. They do not think that is the way to go.

And so I have beenI cannot tell you I was surprised because I thought it would happen that way with people like Colin Powell and Rich Armatage, and Paul Wollack and others who worked on those issues in those days, but it really does come from the top, from the President who, as you know, in China raised these kinds of issues. It is not looked upon as an inconvenience. It is looked upon, as was stated before by one of your colleagues, as an integral part of the fight against terrorism; that there is a reason that people become terrorists, and it is not the only reason, but it is something that needs to be worked on.

Mr. SMITH. Thank you. My time is over, but I thank you.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you, Mr. Smith.

Mr. Pitts? No, sorry, Mr. Hoeffel. I apologize.

Mr. HOEFFEL. Thank you, Madam Chair.

I certainly agree with all of my colleagues about the need for human rights abuses to be ended and to put a huge focus on that in any post-Taliban government.

I come back to the economic issue as something that perhaps is needed to ensure that human rights can flourish. My worry is, as everyone is well aware, is that impoverished people of Afghanistan and Central Asia generally do not have alternatives; feel that the religious hatred espoused by some of the fanatical clerics is the only option out there offering them any hope.

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And Mr. Lundstead, you have said that the Administration is focused on aid for Afghanistan. I hope that it is an aid program much larger than Afghanistan, but obviously the focus of this hearing is Afghanistan.

What components are needed? There is educational, there is economic, there is a variety of things. And what sort of components is the Administration looking at?

Mr. LUNDSTEAD. Well, my colleagues in Treasury and AID and the Department's Bureau of Business Affairs are working on all these issues. They have been working for several weeks. I would say, without prejudging a final plan, that there are a number of different aspects.

One is allowing people to feed themselves, first and foremost. Afghan are farmers. They will need seeds, fertilizer, tube wells, roads so they can move their produce. There will be a major agricultural component to this.

They will need assistance in setting up an education system. They will need assistance in human rights and democracy, whatever government is set up. There will be a huge need to rebuild infrastructure: water, electricity, roads I mentioned before. There is so many needs. We could make a list as page long, but those are just a few of the most important and obvious ones that we will be working on.

Mr. HOEFFEL. Regarding agricultural development, how serious is the problem with land mines in Afghanistan?

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Mr. LUNDSTEAD. I should have land mines because that is on the list too. It is a long list. Afghanistan is probably the most heavily mined country in the world. There has been an ongoing de-mining effort for a number of years. It is very successful.

Hopefully, with the Taliban removed form power and a representative government in place, that program will be able to be expanded, and to clear as much land as possible.

Mr. HOEFFEL. You spoke about human rights and democracy, assistance in trying to develop that. How do you do that in a country that does not have an educational system, the public institutions are weak or nonexistent? How do you go about doing that?

Mr. LUNDSTEAD. You have indicated it really. The Afghan will need assistance in institution building, in building their educational system, in building a judiciary, in setting up types of laws and procedures, how does a parliament work. They have not had a parliament for almost 30 years now. There is a whole variety.

But Assistant Secretary Craner knows a lot about democracy assistance. He does it all the time.

Mr. CRANER. As you indicated, without the institutions existing now, and while we will be working to build those up, it is going to have to come from the top down. The government will have to set the standards and live by those standards, and the war powers decentralize the authorities in those area will have to live by those standards, and then it will begin to diffuse through the society.

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Mr. HOEFFEL. And what kind of help can we give? Is it financial? Is it technical assistance on writing a constitution?

Mr. CRANER. I think, initially, it would be some technical assistance where we willwe and others will have our and other examples for them to examine, to look and see what they think is useful to them.

One thing that I have found in doing this work is that no country can be a mirror image of ours, and that it is most useful to show people different examples from around the world and allow them to, you know, pick elements and work with them to see if all of that will work together.

It will be technical and financial.

Mr. HOEFFEL. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you. Mr. Pitts?

Mr. PITTS. Thank you, Madam Chairman.

Mr. Craner, Mr. Lundstead, I am very grateful for the Pakistani government standing with us and cooperating with us. But I am wondering, are there other steps that the government of Pakistan can take to further curb the activities of the Taliban and their cohorts in Pakistan who continue to supply the Taliban with weapons.

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Has the government of Pakistan done anything to stop the recruits from reportedly crossing their border? Have they done anything to stop the use of facilities in Pakistan so that they are not used as training camps for recruits? Can you respond to that?

Mr. LUNDSTEAD. Yes. The government of Pakistan has been fully supportive of our campaign in Afghanistan. Amongst other things, the government has attempted to stop recruits. As I indicated before, it is a long porous border. They cannot stop everyone, but they have turned a lot of people back. That has been reported in the press. They have closed down facilities. They have arrested rebel-rousing leaders who are trying to stir up trouble. They are helping us out.

Mr. PITTS. Mr. Craner?

Mr. CRANER. Nothing to add.

Mr. PITTS. Concerning the humanitarian drops, can you give us any information on the effect of this, of these drops? Are they being utilized by the Afghani people? Are they being dropped near refugee encampments or routes? Is there more that we can do to make sure that the refugees, the innocent people of Afghanistan get the aid that we are trying to give them?

Mr. CRANER. We have a fair amount of evidence that the food is being used, but I wouldthere is a gentleman named Alan Kreczko who works on refugee issues. He is going to be in front of your Committee tomorrow, and I think that question could best and most ably be directed to him.

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Mr. PITTS. Okay . And finally, what do you know about the Taliban permitting or encouraging the trafficking in heroine, in drug, in order to finance their regime?

Mr. LUNDSTEAD. Well, Afghanistan in the year 2000 had the dubious honor of becoming the world's largest producer of heroine. The following year, Omar announced a ban on planting of opium poppy. Much to the surprise of everyone, that ban was largely effective. However, there was a stockpile of several hundred tons of opium already in country, and little or nothing was done to stop the trafficking of that already existent stockpile. Prices went up so the stockpile became more profitable.

Mr. PITTS. We still have some time.

Do you believe that the Loya Jirga can be put into motion quickly enough to avoid a chaotic situation inside Afghanistan once the Taliban is defeated? Do you believe that the rivalries, the ingrained factualism, the interference from many of Afghanistan's neighbors can be overcome in time?

Mr. LUNDSTEAD. Well, we certainly hope so, and that is the goal.

I must say, in my contacts recently with Afghans from different factions all around the world, I see a new seriousness and a willingness to compromise, to work with each other, perhaps because the goal is now real. Everyone can see that it is coming.

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They are trying to put together some type of an interim structure. At what point a Loya Jirga will be held is still not clear. That could come some time down the road. But the important thing is to produce a structure, a political structure that all Afghans, or the majority of Afghans can agree on which can be in place and lead to that Loya Jirga.

Mr. PITTS. Would you respond to the concerns that have been raised about the disconnect between the Department of Defense and the intelligence agencies on the one hand, and the State Department on the other whereby it seems the agencies are giving mixed signals or presenting different views to opposition forces or to participants in their own process?

Mr. LUNDSTEAD. I do not think anyone is presenting mixed views. We are all on the same wavelength. We all work for the same Administration.

Mr. PITTS. All right, we will question the next panel on that. Thank you.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you.

Have I told you lately what a joy it is to have you here, Mr. Delahunt?

Mr. DELAHUNT. Yes, you have, Ileana, and I really appreciate it.

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I think I heard my friend from California chuckling. Did I hear that? [Laughter.]

I thank the gentlelady.

There has been a lot of discussion about involving moderate elements of the Taliban in any coalition government after the fall of the existing regime.

Can you give me a definition of a moderate Taliban?

Mr. LUNDSTEAD. Well, I think the Secretary addressed this issue last week before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and noted that he had not used that term, ''moderate Taliban.''

Mr. DELAHUNT. So do you have a definition?

Mr. LUNDSTEAD. Well, rather than define it, what I would say is that there are many Afghans who have accommodated themselves to Taliban rule for lack of an alternative. We want them to turn away from the Taliban and to look for an alternative. They are not really Taliban. They are people who have to exist in Afghanistan as it is.

Mr. DELAHUNT. I accept your definition, and I would prefer that in the future that we all get on the same page, because I do think that sends a mixed message. I think it was Mr. Pitts that mentioned that, but I do not want to dwell on that.

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Someone posed a question in terms of losing the public relations war, if you will. And I think that is a serious concern and one that I hope that we can address.

Has the Department considered initiatives to be able to present in the appropriate public fora, particularly the TV station in Qatar, Al-Jazeera. Those Afghan Muslims who decry what has occurred since the advent of this particular regime, I think it is very, very important that we put that face out there.

We see CNN and Fox and the networks continually presenting a face that I think is distorting, hopefully distorting, a view of what most Muslims believe in and what their perception and understanding of American intentions.

Mr. CRANER. We are not only considering that, we have begun ain particular, between us and the White House, there is an undersecretary named Charlotte Veers, who was an extremely successful executive up in New York with advertising.

Mr. DELAHUNT. She did testify before this Committee, and I must say I was very impressed.

Mr. CRANER. Yes, she is outstanding.

Mr. DELAHUNT. We need real people out there.

Mr. CRANER. Yes. Yes.

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Mr. DELAHUNT. We do not need undersecretaries and

Mr. CRANER. No, no, no.

Mr. DELAHUNT [continuing]. Members of Congress.

Mr. CRANER. No.

Mr. DELAHUNT. Or flacks.

Mr. CRANER. No, no, no. And part of the effort, she, believe me, understand that, and part of the effort is going to be working and involving people in the Muslin world, and understanding that the face that we show on these issues means something in the Muslin world, and that is why, for example, it was received very well in the Muslin world that the President just a few days after September 11th went to the Islamic Center, not for photo op, but for over an hour to spend time ensuring the people overseas understand

Mr. DELAHUNT. Right.

Mr. CRANER [continuing]. We have a very tolerant society.

Mr. DELAHUNT. I would suggest to you that one of the finest moments in my experience in this body was, and I think Mr. Hoeffel was there that evening, when Congress, in the very late hours, after passing the resolution authorizing force, spoke in a very eloquent, in a very profound and in a very moving way about the need for all Americans to ensure that our fellow citizens and people all over the world who are adherents of Islam be treated with respect and with dignity. You might want to secure that particular segment.

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But I have one other question. We are speaking about Afghanistan today, and I do not want us to fall in the same trap. Mr. Hoeffel, I think, is really giving you a vantage point of what the sentiment is now in this institution about the need to stay engaged.

But we have to have a more holistic perspective, because I would submit that what we are really talking about is all of South Asia, Central Asia here, and I think it is important that we start to speak and start to discuss and start to create, if you will, a plan not just for Afghanistan, not just to reengage in Afghanistan, but for the surrounding countries in Central Asia, and make our sentiments known, and our willingness to do exactly what Mr. Hoeffel and your response described, to nurture democracy and to help these people. I think it is very, very important. I just make that observation. And also

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. A quick observation because your time is up, Mr. Delahunt.

Mr. DELAHUNT. If I do not take a second round, could I get another minute?

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Unfortunately, I thought we were going to have a second round, but two of our panelists have to go. So after they go, we will have to move on to the private panel.

Mr. DELAHUNT. Okay.

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Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. But go ahead for a minute.

Mr. DELAHUNT. I note what I really found a thoughtful and articulate and eloquent statement by the gentleman representing the United Front, and I think he said something in his statement where it says,

''It is dire time to compensate for past negligence, fulfill the responsibility that America abrogated, and finally give the Afghan people the kind of institutions with which you are blessed, democracy and human rights.''

At the same time I find something in his statement disturbing, and that is, it is laced with a certain animosity toward Pakistan, and it might very well be justified. I am not rendering a judgment on that.

But I think it is important for the United States now, if there is going to be stability in the region, to start to mediate and broker between those whom we support, including Pakistan and others, in an attempt to start a reconciliation process, and I hope this is happening: But I would hope that if it is not, that it is being considered so that we start a dialogue, because we do not ever again want to see what happened happen.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you so much, Mr. Delahunt.

Mr. ROHRABACHER. Well, Mr. Delahunt, left meon that note I will just suggest that we have been far too sensitive to the Pakistanis. I think we have been bending over backwards to a regime and to a country that after all created the Taliban, and did everything to keep the Taliban in power for about 5 years.

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No wonder there is some suspicion about Pakistan and its motives in trying to build a post-Taliban regime in Kabul. Of course, they are suspicious in Afghanistan because the Pakistanis were the ones that hoisted the Taliban on them in the first place.

So, number one, I think the State Department should forget about being sensitive to Pakistan, and get on with winning the war, and defeating the Taliban militarily, and getting rid of the terrorists like bin Laden who has been using Afghanistan as a safe haven. And when we do that, we will have the respect of the people of Pakistan and every other country in the region.

But if we carry this one, if we let this thing stretch out, trying to be sensitive to everybody

Mr. DELAHUNT. Will the gentleman yield?

Mr. ROHRABACHER. Not until I finish.

Mr. DELAHUNT. Okay.

Mr. ROHRABACHER. Because I need to finish this one point. That if we are trying to be too sensitive to this and things stretch out because we are not going to, you know, provide too much ammunition for the people in the north or too much support for the people over here who the Pakistanis do not like, this thing will stretch out, and that will be a PR disaster. Let us get this over with, let us win the battle, and then we will be respected. Yes.

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Mr. DELAHUNT. Will the gentleman yield?

Mr. ROHRABACHER. I certainly will.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Mr. Delahunt.

Mr. DELAHUNT. I thank my friend for yielding. I do not want you to misinterpret my comments and my observations.

I concur, it is time for the Taliban to go. We have seen what havoc they have reaped. What I was referring to, however, was a statement that I thought was very moving and well thought-out, and again laced with criticism of Pakistan, I am not rendering a judgment on that, but in the aftermath of the Taliban going, what I suggest, it is time to start to mediate and start a process of reconciliation between the peoples and to use our good offices.

I thank the gentleman.

Mr. ROHRABACHER. And I am reclaiming my time.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Mr. Rohrabacher.

Mr. ROHRABACHER. That leads right into the next point which is important.

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Yes, when the Taliban are gone, let us help the people of Afghanistan rebuild their country, and the most important thing we can do is work with them to help to develop the court system and the election processes and the civil processes they need so that they can make their own decisions.

Luckily, we have right now an alternative. His name is Zahir Shah. He is the former King of Afghanistan. If you want to take a look at someone who has done something for women's rights in Afghanistan, take a look at what he did during his reign for the women's rights of the people of Afghanistan. He and his family did more for human rights and women's rights in Afghanistan than all the rest of those people jabbering away for the last 10 years. And I will tell you right now Zahir Shah wants to be a person who makes a contribution, heads a transition government, and will then just help set up a democratic process so the Pakistanis do not run Afghanistan, the Iranians do not run Afghanistan, the Russians do not run Afghanistan, and the United States does not run Afghanistan, but the people of Afghanistan run Afghanistan. Let them control their own destiny, and we will not have peace until that happens.

With this said, let me just say this, which I repeat the one point I made early on. The people of Afghanistan do not support the Taliban. Am I correct in that assumption?

Mr. CRANER. Correct.

Mr. ROHRABACHER. They have been victimized more than anyone else, including when you take into consideration the 6,000 Americans that have been slaughtered.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you, Mr. Rohrabacher.

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Ms. MCKINNEY. I do not think anybody is

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Ms. McKinney, you are not recognized.

Ms. MCKINNEY [continuing]. Supporting the Taliban except maybe some

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Ms. McKinney, you are not recognized.

Ms. MCKINNEY [continuing]. Elements of the State Department and the CIA.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. You are not recognized, Ms. McKinney. Thank you.

Mr. ROHRABACHER. Okay.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Mr. Rohrabacher, I will haveI will have the panelist answer your question in the remaining 30 seconds, and I would like to then ask Ms. Davis for her 5 minutes, and then we will have to

Mr. ROHRABACHER. Thank you very much.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN [continuing]. Recess for three votes, so we will be gone awhile.

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Mr. Craner.

Mr. CRANER. I do not think there is any question about the support for the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Mr. ROHRABACHER. Meaning that they do not support it. Great.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you very much.

Ms. Davis is recognized for 5 minutes.

Ms. DAVIS. Thank you, Madam Chairman.

Has the State Department coordinated with the Department of Defense as to what will be done with any prisoners we take who may have been engaged in war crimes? And is the State preparing any contingencies for war crime trials?

Mr. CRANER. The answer I know is yes on the first question. On the second question, I have with me Andre Surena who is from our legal affairs office, who I think can give you a full answer. But we have been walking through this.

Mr. SURENA. Thank you, Madam Chair.

I am in the section of the State Department that deals with human rights and refugees, so I am not most essentially situated to respond to your question. But I feel confident that the U.S. Government, the Department, together with other relevant agencies in the government is in fact looking into the kinds of contingencies that you mentioned.

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Ms. DAVIS. We know that the State Department has attempted to influence Afghanistan in the past, but what practically can the State Department be doing right now during this wartime?

Mr. CRANER. Can you elaborate on what you mean by ''influence''?

Ms. DAVIS. What can you be doing now during the war over in Afghanistan? How can you be influencing the people over there right now with what is going on with the war?

I mean, in the past, you have been over there and tried to influence them, and I guess we have not been very successful, so I guess I am wondering what can you really practically be doing right now during the war?

Mr. LUNDSTEAD. Well, we are doing a number of things. There are radio broadcasts into Afghanistan which are getting our point of view across. We are continuing the humanitarian relief effort despite the obstruction of the Taliban who are hindering it greatly. We are talking to Afghans all around the world. We are about to provide a grant of money to King Zahir Shah's group to help them build a political process. We are doing a number of things.

Ms. DAVIS. Is our food aid really working? You sort of touched on that, and I guess that is a concern of mine. We continually keep throwing money out there and sending the food, but do we really even know actually how much food is needed? And is it, in fact, getting to the Afghans?

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Mr. CRANER. I think we have a good sense of how much is needed. I think we have been very, very clear that the air drops are not the only thing that is needed in Afghanistan. But part of the problem has been the Taliban interference with the relief supplies inside, ground relief supplies inside Afghanistan.

I notice everybody had newspapers before. This is by Mr. Lubbers, the head of the UN Refugee Agency,

''Sought assurances for the safety of his staff in Afghanistan and a halt to what the UN said had been looting of some of its offices and warehouses. He said he told the Moulah with whom he met 'don't loot our property, respect our people. Don't threaten them and let them do their work.' Despite repeated complaints about Afghans being subjected to terrorism and genocide by the American bombing, the Taliban have halted virtually all relief work by the UN and other organizations and have appropriated many of their vehicles and other equipment for military use.''

But I would again direct you to my colleague, Alan Kreczko, who is going to be here tomorrow, I think in front of the Full Committee, who can address your question more directly and more knowledgeably.

Ms. DAVIS. You may direct me back to him again. But if that is the case and you know that it is not working, that the Taliban is blocking the food that we are sending in, are we looking at other ways to get the food to the Afghans to help them out, rather than continuing to do something that is not working?

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Mr. CRANER. Again, I would direct you to Alan. I think it is fair to say that the air drops are working, but again, they are not all that is required, but we are always looking for better ways to do it.

In fact, the guy that runs AID now, Andrew Nautcious, this was his specialty for many, many years, and he is very innovative in figuring these things out.

Ms. DAVIS. Thank you, sir.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you so much, Ms. Davis.

In the interest of time because we have a private panelist who does have to go. Thank you, Lorne. Thank you, Jeff. Scooting you out.

Mr. Kumar, we will give you the proper introduction later, and I would like to recognize you for 2 minutes. We will enter your full testimony into the record, but we know you have a flight to catch. Do not get too cozy. Go right in there, come on, slam your way into that witness chair.

Ms. MCKINNEY. And Madam Chair

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Go ahead, Cynthia.

Ms. MCKINNEY. Before Lorne gets away, there will be some additional questions that we will submit, and we certainly look forward to your response.

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Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. You know he is waiting for that.

Ms. MCKINNEY. Great. Thanks.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you.

Mr. Kumar, is Advocacy Director for Asia and Pacific for Amnesty International. Mr. Kumar, please sit down and we will give you 2 minutes, and we will enter your testimony into the record. Thank you so much.

He has debated with Taliban representatives, and testified before the House and Senate concerning conditions there. He himself has been a victim of human rights violations. He has been imprisoned and tortured in Sri Lanka for his student human rights activities. Thank you.

STATEMENT OF T. KUMAR, ADVOCACY DIRECTOR FOR ASIA & PACIFIC, AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL USA

Mr. KUMAR. Thank you very much. Madam Chair, Amnesty International is extremely pleased to testify in this hearing.

When we talk about Afghanistan, one thing that comes to our mind is that the suffering of Afghan people has been neglected by everyone for the last 20 years. So I would like to address what happened for the last 20 years, what is happening now, and what should happen in the future.

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We heard testimony so far about the past human rights abuses against women, children, civilians, and refugees. One thing I would like to stress is that every Afghan is a victim of human rights abuse. There is no competition of who were abused more, who were abused less.

This country have gone through hell for the last 20 years. They have lost more than 400,000 children during the war. Thousands and thousands of women were treated like spoils of war. Then, of course, under the Taliban, their fundamental rights were taken out. Almost one-third of the population became refugees, and they have been living for the last 20 years as refugees, and treated like dirt by everyone around the world.

What is happening today? Today, unfortunately, the country is in the middle of the war, of no fault of them. We would urge that humanitarian law be respected, civilian targets be avoided, and above all, the refugees being taken care by every country in the neighborhoods.

We would like to recognize that Pakistan and Iran have shouldered enough responsibility for the last 20 years. We would urge them to open their borders and also other Central Asian countries to open their borders for Afghan refugees.

We also would urge that every party in this country avoid recruiting children as soldiers. Afghan children need something for them in the future.

The future is the challenge that we all should be concerned about. We should not allow human rights to be a victim again in future for Afghan people. Human rights should be central to any future considerations.

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[The prepared statement of Mr. Kumar follows:]

PREPARED STATEMENT OF T. KUMAR, ADVOCACY DIRECTOR FOR ASIA & PACIFIC, AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL USA

Thank you Madam Chair and distinguished members of the Committee for providing Amnesty International the opportunity to testify at this important hearing. Madam Chair, the attacks of September 11th shocked the world. Thousands of innocent people from 80 nations were among the victims. The attacks represented nothing less than a massive violation of human rights. Amnesty International has expressed our grief and solidarity with the victims and their families. We also have expressed our outrage at those responsible and reiterate here today our demand that they be brought to justice. We can best honor the victims of these heinous attacks by not forgetting the human rights of other innocent people in the United States and around the world. We have united to demand justice, but we also should unite to protect the human rights of all.

Among the innocent are the vast majority of the long suffering Afghan people. The human rights situation in Afghanistan has been of consistent and grave concern to Amnesty International for decades. We have documented human rights abuses perpetrated by all sides in the conflict. We have sought to increase awareness and to bring attention to the continuing suffering of the Afghan people. We have characterized what has happened there as the World's largest forgotten tragedy. We have documented widespread human rights violations by both the Taleban and the Northern Alliance.

A history of abuse against civilians

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But human rights abuses committed by the Taleban and Northern Alliance represent only the latest tragedy in the sad history of Afghanistan. Throughout the 1980s, Afghanistan was a Cold War battleground. Following the Soviet Union's invasion in 1979, the United States supported and trained the Mujahideen resistance forces. Those trained by the U.S. now can be found among those fighting with the Northern Alliance, as well as among those fighting with the Taleban.

In 1989, the Soviet withdrawal and U.S. disengagement left a power vacuum that plunged Afghanistan into civil war with warring factions vying for control of the country. In 1996, Taleban forces captured the capital city of Kabul and soon took control of most of the country. The opposing Northern Alliance lost ground, controlling about 5 to 10 percent of the country's territory by September 2001.

Taleban

Many of the Taleban leadership received religious training in Islamic schools in Pakistan. They emerged as a new military and political force in November 1994 when they captured the city of Kandahar from Mujahideen groups. In September 1996, Taleban forces entered Kabul. Among their first acts was to hang former President Najibullah, who since the fall of his Soviet-backed government in April 1992 had received refuge in a UN compound.

Pakistan is the only country that recognizes the Taleban as the government of Afghanistan. Saudi Arabia and United Arab Emirates withdrew their recognition after the September 11th attack.

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The Taleban have imposed harsh restrictions on personal conduct and behavior to enforce its particular interpretation of Islamic law and were responsible for continuing numerous and widespread human rights abuses, especially against women. The Taleban has reportedly committed political and other extra-judicial executions that include targeted and mass killings, summary executions, torture, and death in custody. Taleban Shari'a courts and religious police apply procedures that fall short of international fair standards and that impose cruel, inhuman, and degrading punishment, such as public executions for adultery or murder, amputations for theft, and beatings for lesser infractions. Thousands of people are reportedly held without charge or trial, including members of ethnic minority groups held on suspicion of supporting the Northern Alliance. In 1998, the Taleban prohibited satellite dishes as part of an effort to ban music, television, and movies, and to create an environment free of any external influence or culture.

Women under the Taleban

The Taleban imposed especially severe restriction on women. Its policy of ''gender apartheid'' is unlike anywhere in the world. The Taleban's policies deny basic and fundamental rights to women, including freedom of association, expression, and movement. Under the Taleban's strict rules, women are not allowed to study, work, or move around without wearing the all-enveloping ''burqa.''

One of the most consistent policies of the Taleban is to punish women for defying their draconian edicts. Taleban guards beat and humiliate women for defying their rules, even for acts as seemingly insignificant as showing one's ankle. The Taleban's ministry for ''preventing vice and fostering virtue'' vigilantly enforces the restrictions on women. Women are regularly rounded up and punished for allegedly violating the Taleban's rules on clothing. On one occasion, the Taleban reportedly cut off the end of a woman's thumb for wearing nail polish.

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Women continue to be subjected to death by stoning and public executions. One married woman was accused of attempting to leave her husband to be with another man. An Islamic tribunal reportedly found her guilty of adultery and, as punishment stipulated her to death by stoning.

Under the Taleban, women are required to remain out of sight. In March 1997, the Taleban ordered Kabul residents to block the windows in their homes at the ground and first floor levels to ensure that women could not be seen from the street. A Taleban representative speaking from the Attorney General's office in Kabul, told journalists that the face of a woman is a source of corruption for men who are not related to her.

Whenever the Taleban captures territory, among the first steps they have taken is to enforce their ''gender apartheid'' policies. On May 24, 1997 when the Taleban briefly captured the northern city of Mazar-e-Sharif, they announced through loudspeakers that women were to stay indoors and that they were only to be allowed outside in the company of a male relative and wearing a burqa. Women were told not to report for work and the Taleban stopped education for girls and women.

The Taleban's restriction on education and employment has had devastating affects on thousands of university students and professional women. In 1996, the Taleban closed Kabul University, which reportedly had about 8,000 women students. In Herat an estimated 3,000 women lost their jobs after the Taleban took control.

Women suffer extreme repression and effectively live under house arrest. Among the women, tens of thousands are widows who without a man are the sole breadwinners for their families and do not have a close male relative to accompany them in public. Severe depression and desperation is rampant.

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Northern Alliance

Unfortunately, conditions under Northern Alliance are not much better. The United Nations and several countries recognize the Northern Alliance as the government of Afghanistan. During their rule in Kabul from 1992 to 1996, the Northern Alliance was responsible for numerous human rights abuses against Afghan civilians. Violations were widespread and included rape, extra-judicial executions and torture, as well as long-term detention of prisoners of conscience. In 1996, the Northern Alliance lost Kabul to the Taleban and subsequently lost most of their territories to the Taleban. Although the abuses by the Northern Alliance continued, the reports of such abuses have declined in recent months. This may be the result of the Northern Alliance controlling limited territory. Such abuses could easily increase as the armed conflict spreads.

Children

The ongoing civil war in Afghanistan also has had a devastating impact on children. While the Taleban denies education to girls, all parties to the conflict recruit boys as child solders. Many are orphaned and have lost their siblings in addition to their parents. Thousands of children die yearly from malnutrition and respiratory infections. The only experience of many of these children have is of war, death, and destruction.

Over the last two decades, four hundred thousand children have been killed due to the war and thousands more have died of war related injuries. They were killed in indiscriminate bombings and shelling of their homes, schools, or playgrounds. They were victims of both deliberate and arbitrary killings and in many cases torture.

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Afghanistan is one of the most heavily mined countries in the world. Landmines have killed thousands of children. Many of those who survive the blast have died later due to lack of medical facilities. Others are left blind, deaf or without limbs.

Two generations of Afghan children have been raised in a highly militarized ''gun culture.'' In schools, both inside the country and refugee camps, textbooks, and teaching methods have used images of tanks, guns, and bullets in mathematics and reading classes.

The United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF) reports that one in every two children is malnourished and that one in four Afghan children die before the age of five from preventable causes. The child mortality rates within the camps for internally displaced are even higher with one in every three children dying before the age of five. In May 2001, the UN reported that 25 children had died in an Afghan refugee camp in Pakistan due to heat stroke.

According to UNICEF, almost all the children they interviewed witnessed acts of violence. Two thirds of them had seen dead bodies or body parts and nearly half had seen people killed during rocket and artillery attacks. A disturbing 90 percent of the children believed that they would die during the conflict. UNICEF's research also indicates that the majority of children from Kabul suffer from serious traumatic stress.

Humanitarian situation

The large displacement of Afghans between late 2000 and mid 2001 was accompanied by a lack of resources of humanitarian organizations and outbreaks of disease that killed many, particularly children, and the elderly. For example, during the last week of January 2001, reportedly 480 internally displaced Afghans in a camp outside Herat, including 220 children, froze to death due to a lack of shelter and blankets. Threat of a military attack and restrictions imposed by the Taleban on humanitarian activity, including detention of aid workers, have forced UN and other aid agencies in Afghanistan to withdraw their international staff. The pullout has come at a time when Afghanistan is facing a deepening humanitarian crisis.

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The ongoing civil war and continuing drought has left between 5.5 and 6 million people in desperate need of aid, and the deteriorating situation and severe disruption in food distribution is likely to further increase this vulnerable population to 7.5 million, of which an estimated 70 percent are women and children. With such a large number of people suddenly deprived of humanitarian assistance from aid agencies, the UN have warned that starvation may occur in parts of Afghanistan.

In spite of security and logistical difficulties, limited deliveries of aid into Afghanistan were resumed between September 29 and October 8. During this period, the WFP reported that it delivered an average of 500 tons of aid per day. In addition, Oxfam and UNICEF were able to deliver both food and non-food aid, including blankets and basic health kits.

The amount of aid reaching the country is far less than the 52,000 tons per month that the WFP estimates it will take to feed the 6 million Afghans at highest risk, and falls short of pre-crisis deliveries, which amounted to 5,000 tons per week. Aid agencies were particularly concerned about the situation in the hardest hit northern provinces of Balkh and Faryab where it was estimated that 400,000 people were expected to have run out of food supplies during the week of 5 October. One challenge is the delivery of food before the onset of winter, which usually occurs around mid-November. The WFP are planning to airdrop food to some 100,000 families in the mountainous central highlands region, who risk becoming cut off once winter sets in. However, the Taleban had closed the airspace under their control and WFP has been attempting to negotiate with them for air corridors to be opened so that airdrops can be made by the organization.

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Relief agencies indicate that women and children remain particularly at risk during the current crisis. The UN Population Fund has expressed particular concern about the thousands of pregnant women among those who have been recently displaced who will be particularly affected by the lack of food, shelter, and medical care as well as unsanitary conditions that have only worsened during the current crisis. On 25 September, UNHCR reported that, in at least two cases, pregnant women waiting on the Afghanistan-Pakistan border were permitted to enter Pakistan to give birth and were given medical treatment but were then subsequently sent back to Afghanistan.

Displacement of Afghans since 11 September 2001

Initially, the threat of a US-led military strike on Afghanistan and increased Taleban repression caused hundreds of thousands of people to flee their homes, particularly from major cities. A quarter of the population of Kabul and half the population of the southern Afghan province of Kandahar, the headquarters of the Taleban, reportedly have evacuated. Prior to the threat, the already large number of internally displaced persons was estimated to have grown to a total of 1.1 million. The UNHCR predicts that the number of internally displaced persons could rise to 2.2 million by March 2002.

Reports indicate that the Taleban prevented some refugees from leaving Afghanistan or from moving towards the borders. In one incident, the Taleban reportedly stopped 30 to 40 Afghan families from Herat on their way toward Iran and prevented the men in the families from continuing, saying that they had to join the Taleban forces and fight. It was reported that the women and children in these families turned back as well because they did not want to be separated from their male family members.

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Following the most recent displacement of Afghans, Pakistan authorities have strengthened their efforts to prevent new Afghan refugees from entering Pakistan, citing security concerns and their inability to support additional refugees. On September 18, Pakistan closed its border with Afghanistan, reportedly due in part to a US request; the authorities are reportedly allowing only vehicles with Afghan transit goods and Pakistani nationals to enter.

The Refugees

During the 22 years of civil war in Afghanistan, millions of Afghan men, women, and children fled the country as refugees because of gross human rights abuses and fighting between armed factions.

Most of the refugees fled between 1979 and 1992. During that time period, more than a fifth of Afghanistan's populationover six million peoplefled the country in search of safety to Pakistan and Iran. Currently there are 1.5 million Afghan refugees in Iran and 2 million in Pakistan.

While millions of Afghans fled the country, many are internally displaced within Afghanistan's borders and are too poor to obtain transport or too weak to move. They languish, without proper food, medicine, housing, or security. The internally displaced seek safety in remote areas, in the mountains or in camps. Thousands of families in Afghanistan relocated several times over the last 23 years to escape fighting in different areas.

Afghans who leave the country do not necessarily escape danger. In Pakistan, Afghans continue to be at risk of violence from combat groups that are active along the border areas and at times exercise effective control over the refugee camps. Scores of refugees have been murdered in the very place they fled for safety.

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Many Afghan refugees in Pakistan and Iran endure hardships. Although refugees have been allowed to work in these countries and have received a degree of support, most are barely able to sustain a meager living conditions for themselves and their families.

Over the last few years, the United Nations Consolidated Appeal for Afghanistan, the UN inter-agency mechanism for coordinated fundraising supporting Afghan relief projects, has received far less funding from donor governments than it has required to maintain the necessary priority assistance programs.

Pakistan continues to keep its border with Afghanistan closed admits only seriously ill individuals. However, the UNHCR is preparing for 1 million additional Afghan refugees in Pakistan. Tajikistan also keeps its borders with Afghanistan closed. The UNHCR is preparing for an influx of approximately 50,000 Afghan refugees into Tajikistan, another 50,000 into Turkmenistan, and up to 10,000 in Uzbekistan. Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan have also effectively sealed their borders with Afghanistan.

Although Iran closed its borders on 15 September, there are reports that it has opened its borders recently and that the UNHCR is preparing to receive an influx of up to 400,000 new Afghan refugees in Iran.

Amnesty International has expressed concern both about the failure of neighboring states to provide protection to Afghan refugees and about the failure of the international community to provide adequate support to countries hosting this population.

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Pakistan, Iran, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, and China Uzbekistan should immediately open their borders to refugees. The international community must share the responsibility of protecting these refugees. These host states should respect the refugees fundamental civil rights and should ensure that they have the basic necessities of life. Particular attention should be given to groups with special protection needs, such as women, children, and the elderly. Refugees should be provided with means to stay in a place of safety that is not close to dangerous border areas. UNHCR must be able to implement in full its protection mandate.

The arms transfers

Throughout the world, Amnesty International opposes the transfer of military and security equipment and expertise in cases in which one can reasonably assume is contributing to grave human rights violations. Amnesty International is extremely concerned that unconditional transfers of weapons and other military equipment and expertise to the warring parties in Afghanistan will increase the clear and sustained pattern of unlawful killings, torture and other serious human rights abuses and war crimes, that have occurred in Afghanistan since 1979.

Amnesty International remains opposed to transfer of arms or security equipment and training to the Taleban, the Northern Alliance and other armed groups in Afghanistan that have a record of committing gross human rights abuses. As there appears to have been a degree of structural integration, both the combatants of the Taleban and of al-qa'ida may be considered as belonging to the same military force. Since 1994, the main supplies of arms and related items to the Taleban have come from official stocks in Pakistan or from Chinese and other sales through private dealers based in Pakistan, and with major funding from Saudi Arabia.

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Following the August 1998 bombings of the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, the UN Security Council imposed progressively more comprehensive sanctions on the Taleban under Resolutions 1267 (1999), 1333 (2000), and 1363 (2001), including an arms embargo. These sanctions are binding on all members of the United Nations under. Amnesty International appeals to the government of Pakistan to make every effort to halt such transfers from its territory, and to the government of Saudi Arabia to halt financial support from its residents.

Amnesty International also is deeply concerned about proposed arms transfers to the Northern Alliance from the United States, Russia, Iran, and other states. Amnesty International is concerned that the supply of arms and related equipment and expertise to the Northern Alliance would fail to take account of the serious violations of human rights and humanitarian law perpetrated by those forces.

Impunity

To Amnesty International's knowledge, there have never been any accountability for these abuses against women and children and other serious human rights abuses committed in Afghanistan since the war began in 1978. No state has brought to justice Afghans within their jurisdiction suspected of serious human rights abuses. If the cycle of abuses is to be broken, there must be a concerted international effort to end impunity in the country. Any political settlement must exclude the granting of pre-conviction amnesties for alleged perpetrators of serious human rights abuses. Perpetrators should be brought to justice regardless of rank or other status. States should take steps to ensure that universal jurisdiction is exercised by their national courts for war crimes and other serious abuses of human rights committed in Afghanistan.

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Prospects for peace

Over the last twenty years, efforts to secure peace in Afghanistan have failed. If Afghanistan is to experience peace in the future, it must begin with a foundation that provides all it's residentsincluding all women and all childrenwith the human rights protection, as enshrined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. With human rights principles as the cornerstone, Amnesty International believes that:

All parties in the current conflict must take every measure to ensure that international human rights and humanitarian law is upheld.

Congress and the Administration should ensure that any military assistance be accompanied by clear commitments on human rights and effective mechanisms to monitor use of weapons.

The Administration should urge the countries neighboring Afghanistan to keep their borders open to Afghan refugees and the Administration should explore the possibility of emergency resettlement of Afghan civilians in the U.S. and other countries, as was done during the Kosovo refugee resettlement program. Amnesty International recommends that women and children be given priority.

Congress should support efforts by the Administration and appropriate international relief agencies to provide food, shelter, and medical assistance to refugees and internally displaced people and that the Administration work with appropriate international relief agencies to prevent further human rights violations in the refugee camps, and create an atmosphere of personal security, and, to the extent possible, provide basic education and employment training.

Page 107

The Administration should ensure that any political settlement must exclude the granting of pre-conviction amnesties for alleged perpetrators of serious human rights abuses.

The Administration ensure that Afghan women are adequately represented in any peace process, as well as in any future government.

Madam Chair, Human rights must be central to the negotiation of any settlement to the conflict in Afghanistan. Any political settlement should contain explicit guarantees from the parties on immediate ending of serious abuses, including extrajudicial killings, torture and arbitrary detention. Specific protection should be sought against retaliation and discrimination against ethnic and religious groups.

The parties to any political settlement should undertake to end systematic discrimination against women and to ensure full respect for their fundamental human rights, including their rights to freedom of movement, expression, association, education, employment and health.

A political settlement must be based on broad consultation and participation by the widest possible cross section of Afghan society. The aim of negotiations should be to help create institutions of governance committed to and capable of effectively protecting human rights. Particular emphasis should be placed on adherence to the fundamental principle of non-discrimination, so as to ensure the full protection and meaningful participation of women and all religious and ethnic groups.

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Measures for the effective protection and verification of human rights should be incorporated into any settlement of the conflict. International human rights field monitors should be deployed throughout Afghanistan as soon as possible. The monitors should include experts on women's rights. Impartial human rights monitoring would assist in protecting human rights as well as building confidence in the process towards peace. Pending their deployment in Afghanistan, the monitors could be placed in neighbouring countries to collect and analyse information to assess the prevailing human rights situation in Afghanistan, to publicly report on their findings and to inform the peace making process in Afghanistan.

Those entrusted with positions of leadership in a post-conflict Afghanistan must be individuals with a genuine commitment to the protection and promotion of human rights for all. The past human rights record of such people should be taken as a measure of their integrity. Particular consideration should be given to including those who have been denied participation in the past because of systematic discrimination, such as women.

The national reconstruction of Afghanistan must include the development of institutions for the promotion and protection of human rights, including law enforcement agencies trained in international standards and able to promote and protect human rights, and a judiciary capable of conducting fair trials. This task must be included at the outset of any program of institution-building in the country, as it is central to the effective protection of human rights.

An expert commission should be established to examine and advise on how to rebuild the criminal justice system in Afghanistan in line with international human rights standards. The commission could also advise on the mechanisms best suited to address past human rights abuses in Afghanistan, the abuses committed during the present conflict, as well as abuses taking place during the transition to a fully-fledged, functioning and fair judiciary.

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Thank you Madam chair for holding this hearing at this crucial time.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you.

Mr. KUMAR. On this note

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you, Mr. Kumar. We sincerely apologize, but we have a series

Mr. KUMAR. Thank you.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN [continuing]. Of four votes, and your testimony will be placed entirely into the record, and will submit to you our questions.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Ms. McKinney, if you have any remarks for Mr. Kumar before we recess.

Ms. MCKINNEY. The only thing I can say is that I wish we had more time because your statement is most eloquent, and I just want you to know that I fully respect the work that you do and the position that Amnesty International has taken and the statements that you have made here today may be a little shocking, but they are no more shocking than what you actually see when you go over there and you talk to those women who have been totally dispossessed of everything.

Page 110

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you, Ms. McKinney.

Ms. MCKINNEY. Including their dignity.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. The Subcommittee will recess

Mr. KUMAR. Thank you very much.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN [continuing]. Until we come back. Thank you so much, Mr. Kumar.

Mr. KUMAR. Thanks.

[Whereupon, a recess was taken.]

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. The Subcommittee will come to order again.

We are proud to have with us a representative of the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan, RAWA. She comes to us today under the pseudonym of Tahmeena Faryal. Because she is an active member of RAWA in the region, she does not want her identity nor her location revealed.

The RAWA was established in Kabul in 1977 as an independent political-social organization of Afghan women fighting for human rights and for social justice. And we thank her for joining us today, and we will be hearing from her.

Page 111

We will then be hearing the testimony of Quadir Amiryar, born in Afghanistan. He is a professor with the Elliot School of International Affairs at the George Washington University, and also serves as the executive director of the Central Asia Research and Development Center at GW.

A member of the Advisory Board of the Afghanistan Foundation, Dr. Amiryar takes part in the Cyprus Process, which has long looked at the problems in Afghanistan.

Lastly, we will hear from Mr. Haron Amin, and Afghan diplomat at the UN who has been appointed to serve as the principal spokesperson for the Northern Alliance/United Front. He and his family fled Afghanistan and settled in the U.S. However, he returned to fight Soviet occupation under his mentor, Commander Massoud, recently assassinated by Taliban forces.

In the U.S., he has continued to work with the Afghan government in exile at the UN, and in other capacities.

Thank you for joining us today, and we look forward to your testimony. We will begin with the representative of the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan, and we will have our media specialists help us set that up.

[Pause.]

STATEMENT OF TAHMEENA FARYAL, REPRESENTATIVE, REVOLUTIONARY ASSOCIATION OF THE WOMEN OF AFGHANISTAN

Page 112

Ms. FARYAL. Thank you, Madam Chair.

The basics of Afghanistan's situation have become more known in the past weeks, in the U.S. and across the world. After years of neglect, the desperate situation of the Afghan people is receiving much needed attention. However, the peoples' voices are rarely heard, and are at risk of being drowned out entirely by the horrific crash of war and global geo-politics.

Founded in 1977, the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan is the oldest women's humanitarian and political organization in Afghanistan. Based inside Afghanistan and in neighboring Pakistan, RAWA is an independent, all-volunteer, non-violent organization calling for multilateral disarmament and the establishment of a secular democratic government in which women may once again participate fully in public life.

Currently, RAWA provides refugee relief, underground medical care and education, income-generating projects, orphanages, documentation of Taliban and other Jehadis' atrocities, protest demonstrations and events, and other initiatives in both countries. RAWA members in Afghanistan have stayed to continue our work during many past crises, and we remain there today.

The RAWA's work is also aimed toward giving voice to our downtrodden people, especially the womenand empowering women and men not to forget that theywe alldeserve human rights and freedoms and to look toward a day when the guns and rockets will stop and we can begin to rebuild.

Page 113

The current humanitarian situation is grave, and being made worse each day by the continued fighting, the U.S. bombing, and the destruction and fear both continue to cause. Winter is coming and starving people are, of necessity, fluid in their alliances.

The political situation is made even more precarious by what many Afghans perceive to be U.S. aggression against our country and our civilians, even as we cheer the possibility of the Taliban's demise. And continued and increasing foreign assistance to the reviled Northern Alliance has plunged our people into a horrific anxiety and fear of re-experiencing the dreadful years of the Jehadis' emirate of the 1990s. In the words of one refugee in Peshawar, September 25th of this year, many of the people say that, ''All of them, Taliban and Taliban opposition, are criminals, and we don't want them ruling Afghanistan. For the past 20 years they have all given the people only bullets instead of food and graves instead of houses.''

The Afghan people want what any people in this earth would wantthe cessation of wanton violence and establishment of basic stability so that we may re-establish civil society. What is going on now, and has for decades, is not our religion, our culture, nor our traditionsit is an abomination of Islam and all other peaceful religions, and a violation of our people who are being held hostage by fanatics.

As another long-time Afghan refugee said this October,

''The people of Afghanistan want peace, security, and the opportunity to rebuild under a government established by legitimate elections where the people vote without a gun to their heads.''

Page 114

The RAWA sees the former king, Zahir Shah, as a viable non-monarchical central figure around which an interim government could form. However, if he comes to the scene while relying on the Northern Alliance and so-called ''moderate'' Taliban elements, he will not only betray his reputation among the Afghan people, but will also undermine the stability and viability of whatever structure he forms.

Our people have not forgotten the years after the collapse of the Soviet puppet regime of Najibthe most horrible years of terrorism and unchastityand as well we do not forget the time not so long ago when the Jehadis' themselves were the cheap servants of Osama bin Laden as the Taliban are today.

Currently, RAWA and many other Afghans fear that the Northern Alliance groups now lie in ambush, waiting to ride the guns of the U.S. into Kabul and working to gain western backing to establish their second emirate. They have yet to prove, or even to offer, a single shred of reason or credible evidence suggesting that they would not repeat their prior atrocities.

Page 115

In its 1995 report on the Mujahadeen wars that followed the Soviet withdrawal, Amnesty International documented that

''Thousands of unarmed civilian women have been killed by unexpected and deliberate artillery attacks on their homes . . . They have been blown up or hit by rockets or bullets while walking in the streets, waiting at bus stops, working in their houses, or sheltering in large buildings. Many have died or been injured in attacks aimed at mosques, schools, and hospitals. These attacks were justified on the grounds of fighting rival groups, but the nature of their attacks, especially on residential buildings, revealed a deliberate policy of terror by the Mujahadeen against Afghans.''

In addition, Mujahadeen forces, armed and trained by the U.S. government and now part of the Taliban and the Northern Alliance, wage a brutal war against women, using rape, torture, abduction, and force marriages as their weapons. Many women committed suicide during this period as their only escape. Given their past record, we see no possibility that any of these Jahadis will change their nature.

Therefore, any U.S.-Rome process or multilateral initiatives to establish a broad-based government must exclude all Taliban and other criminal Jahadi factions from political power, unless and until a specific faction or person has been absolved of war crimes and crimes against humanity. Else the people will again be plunged into the living hell that engulfed our country from 1992 to 1996 under the elements now involved in the Northern Alliance and continues to the present under the Taliban and other factions.

The RAWA, on behalf of more than half of the population of Afghanistan, also must insist that any Loya Jirga or interim government development process is not legitimate unless it includes and heeds women's voices from beginning to end in substantial and meaningful ways. We ask the unequivocal support of the U.S. and other democracy- and justice-loving countries for this and our other standpoints.

Page 116

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. If we could ask you to wrap up. It is 1 minute and 44 seconds

Ms. FARYAL. Okay.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN [continuing]. After the 5-minute statement. Thank you.

Ms. FARYAL. Afghanistan of course needs substantial help from the international community, but we cannot tolerate external control, and even starving Afghans would resist foreign domination. RAWA as an organization does support the intervention of am multi-national UN or other peacekeeping force to assist in disarming the warring factions, establishing basic securities, and setting the stage for the establishment of an interim government.

We know that such an interim government will likely fall short of democracy, and we strongly insist that the world community assist our people in making certain that such an interim government is only thata temporary stepping stone toward full establishment of citizenship rightsincluding equal rights for women in all spheresand democracy in a new Afghan constitution and governmental structure.

Based on historical evidence, we gravely fear that continuation of the U.S. attacks and the resulting civilian lives lost give excuses to the Taliban and Northern Alliance to wage war, and will also empower and embolden fundamentalist forces in the region and across the worldendangering not only Afghans, but further American lives, and the citizens of many countries.

Page 117

After the horrific terrorist attacks of September 11th here in the U.S., Afghan and Americans

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you. We will give you one more minute.

Ms. FARYAL [continuing]. Like too many other peoples across the globe share a common experience of living under the rule of fear and death. Let us make the best of this tragic commonality; join us in advocating for U.S. and international policies and initiatives that will help build a lasting peace in our country; re-establish internationally recognized human rights for the women, children and men of Afghanistan; pave the way directly to a secular, broad-based, democratic government welcoming to all who are innocent of crimes against our people; and bring all fundamentalist and other terrorists to justice under the rule of international law.

Thank you.

[The prepared statement of Ms. Faryal follows:]

PREPARED STATEMENT OF TAHMEENA FARYAL, REPRESENTATIVE, REVOLUTIONARY ASSOCIATION OF THE WOMEN OF AFGHANISTAN

The basics of Afghanistan's situation have become more known in the past weeks, in the U.S. and across the world. After years of neglect, the desperate situation of the Afghan people is receiving much needed attention. However, the people's voices are rarely heard, and are at risk of being drowned out entirely by the horrific crash of war and global geo-politics.

Page 118

Formed in 1977, the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan is the oldest women's humanitarian and political organization in Afghanistan. Based inside Afghanistan and in neighboring Pakistan, RAWA is an independent, all-volunteer, non-violent organization calling for multilateral disarmament and the establishment of a secular democratic government in which women may once again participate fully in public life. Currently, RAWA provides refugee relief, underground medical care and education, income-generating projects, orphanages, documentation of Taliban and other Jehadis' atrocities, protest demonstrations and events, and other initiatives in both countries. RAWA members in Afghanistan have stayed to continue our work during many past crises, and we remain there today.

RAWA's work is also aimed toward giving voice to our downtrodden people, especially the womenand empowering women and men not to forget that theywe alldeserve human rights and freedoms and to look towards a day when the guns and rockets will stop and we can begin to rebuild.

The current humanitarian situation is grave, and being made worse each day by the continued fighting, the US bombing, and the destruction and fear both continue to cause. Winter is coming and starving people are, of necessity, fluid in their alliances.

The political situation is made ever more precarious by what many Afghans perceive to be US aggression against our country and our civilians, even as we cheer the possibility of the Taliban's demise. And, continued and increasing foreign assistance to the reviled Northern Alliance has plunged our people into a horrific anxiety and fear of re-experiencing the dreadful years of the Jehadis' ''emirate'' of the 1990's. In the words of one refugee in Peshawar (Sept 25th of this year), many many of the people say that, ''All of them, Taliban and Taliban opposition, are criminals, and we don't want them ruling Afghanistan. For the past 20 years they have all given the people only bullets instead of food and graves instead of houses.''

Page 119

The Afghan people want what any people on this earth would wantthe cessation of wanton violence and establishment of basic stability so that we may re-establish civil society. What is going on now, and has for decades, is NOT our religion, our culture, nor our traditionsit is an abomination of Islam and all other peaceful religions, and a violation of our people who are being held hostage by fanatics. As another long-time Afghan refugee said this October, ''the people of Afghanistan want peace, security, and the opportunity to rebuild under a government established by legitimate elections where the people vote without a gun to their heads.''

RAWA sees the former king, Zahir Shah, as a viable non-monarchical central figure around which an interim government could form. However, if he comes to the scene while relying on the Northern Alliance and so-called ''moderate'' Taliban elements, he will not only betray his reputation among the Afghan people, but will also undermine the stability and viability of whatever structure he forms.

So many of those now involved in what has come to be called the Northern Alliance have the blood of our beloved people on their hands, as of course do the Taliban. Their sustained atrocities have been well documented by independent international human rights organizations such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, and others. Those in the Taliban and the Northern Alliance have also proved themselves to be incompetent and corrupt as governing forces. Our people have not forgotten the years after the collapse of the Soviet puppet regime of Najibthe most horrible years of terrorism and unchastity 1,2 and as well we don't forget the time not so long ago when the Jehadis' themselves were the cheap servants of Abdullah Ezam and Osama bin Laden as the Taliban are today.

Page 120

Currently, RAWA and many other Afghans fear that the ''Northern Alliance'' groups now lie in ambush, waiting to ride the guns of the US into Kabul and working to gain western backing to establish their second ''emirate.'' They have yet to prove, or even to offer, a single shred of reason or credible evidence suggesting that they would not repeat their prior atrocities.

In its 1995 report on the Mujahadeen wars that followed the Soviet withdrawal, Amnesty International 1 documented that ''Thousands of unarmed civilian women have been killed by unexpected and deliberate artillery attaches on their homes . . . They have been blown up or hit by rockets or bullets while walking in the streets, waiting at bus stops, working in their houses, or sheltering in large buildings. Many have died or been injured in attacks aimed at mosques, schools, and hospitals. These attacks were justified on the grounds of fighting rival groups, but the nature of the attacks, especially on residential buildings, revealed a deliberate policy of terror by the Mujahadeen against Afghans.''

In addition, Mujahadeen forces, armed and trained by the US government and now part of the Taliban and the Northern Alliance, waged a brutal war against women, using rape, torture, abduction, and forced marriage as their weapons. Many women committed suicide during this period as their only escape. Given their past record, we see no possibility that any of these Jehadis will change their nature.

Therefore, any U.S., ''Rome process,'' or multi-lateral initiatives to establish a broad-based government must exclude all Taliban and other criminal Jehadi factions from political power, unless and until a specific faction or person has been absolved of war crimes and crimes against humanity. Else the people will again be plunged into the living hell that engulfed our country from 19921996 under elements now involved in the Northern Alliance and continues to the present under the Taliban and other factions.

Page 121

RAWA, on behalf of more than half of the population of Afghanistan, also must insist that any Loya Jirga or interim-government development process is not legitimate unless it includes and heeds women's voices from beginning to end in substantial and meaningful ways. We ask the unequivocal support of the US and other democracy- and justice-loving countries for this and our other standpoints.

Afghanistan of course needs substantial help from the international community, but we cannot tolerate external control, and even starving Afghans will resist foreign domination. RAWA as an organization does support the intervention of a multi-national UN or other peacekeeping force to assist in disarming the warring factions, establishing basic securities, and setting the stage for the establishment of an interim government.

We know that such an interim government will likely fall short of democracy, and we strongly insist that the world community assist our people in making certain that such an interim government is only thata temporary stepping stone towards full establishment of citizenship rightsincluding equal rights for women in all spheresand democracy in a new Afghan constitution and governmental structure.

Based on historical evidence, we gravely fear that continuation of the US attacks and the resulting civilian lives lost give excuses to the Taliban and Northern Alliance to wage war, and will also empower and embolden fundamentalist forces in the region and across the worldendangering not only Afghans, but further American lives, and the citizens of many countries.

Page 122

After the horrific terrorist attacks of Sept 11th here in the US, Afghans and Americans, like too many other peoples across the globe, share a common experience of living under the rule of fear and death. Let us make the best of this tragic commonality: Join us in advocating for U.S. and international policies and initiatives that will . . .

help build a lasting peace in our country,

re-establish internationally recognized human rights for the women, children and men of Afghanistan,

pave the way directly to a secular, broad-based, democratic government welcoming to all who are innocent of crimes against our people, and

Bring all fundamentalist and other terrorists to justice under the rule of international law.

Thank you.

1\ Women in Afghanistan: a human rights catastrophe, Amnesty International report, London, 1995. AI Index: ASA 11/03/95.

2\ RAWA. Marginalised Women: Documentation on Refugee Women and Women in Situations of Armed Conflict. A publication of the Asian and Pacific Development Center, 2000

Page 123

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you very much.

Now we are very proud to hear from Mr. Quadiar Amiryar. Dr. Amiryar, I am sorry if I super-mangle your name.

Mr. AMIRYAR. Thank you.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you.

STATEMENT OF A. QUADIR AMIRYAR, Ph.D., EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, CENTRAL ASIA RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT CENTER, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY

Mr. AMIRYAR. And I will try to thank the Committee and the Chair for this opportunity in opening this hearing for Afghanistan.

On the violation of human rights by Taliban, I would like to say that one major aspect of the tragedy in Afghanistan is the existence of a wide separate in an officially sanctioned discrimination against women, girls, and minorities in the areas that are controlled by the Taliban.

It is necessary to establish an independent international inquiry into the massacres and other grave human rights violations committed by parties to the armed conflict in Afghanistan.

Page 124

On religious intolerance, the Human Rights Committee in Geneva, in September 25, this year, announced,

''It has extremely grave concern about the implementation of the International Convention on Civil and Political Rights in Afghanistan, especially as related to the situation of women, public and summery executions, and religious intolerance.''

What would be the shape of the post-Taliban administration?

Here, I would like to share with the Members, distinguished Members of the Committee and the Chair, that last week I was in Cyprus, our annual meeting was held there. And then for the sake of formation of national unity, in cooperation with among various Afghanistan groups from the formation or structure of the future entity for political and administrative needs in Afghanistan, they sent a delegation.

The Cyprus group assigned a delegation to visit Rome, and I had the privilege of being a member of that delegation, and I had audience, or the delegation had audience with the former king. And among those issues that was raised, the King himself, His Majesty, referred to the era of his administration and the role of women under his administration: their participation in congress, in parliament, in the executive, and including in judiciary. These were the words that he mentioned, and he was proudly referring to these words.

And therefore, I think on my testimony I would like to say that in the post-Taliban administration, the former king, his Majesty Zahir Shah would be able to lead and facilitate the transitional administration. He enjoys a good deal of respect and serves as a reminder of the democratic era in Afghanistan. Also, he expressed his desire to serve the people of Afghanistan in that capacity.

Page 125

What can the U.S. do? In the meantime, I would like to emphasize certain elements that they consider, if possible, for the future administration in Afghanistan.

It is the rule of law and democracy, an institution of democracy; revival of traditional institutions, among them the Loya Jirga in Afghanistan would be the most appropriate thing to do.

In a chapter in the constitution that entails and enumerates the basic civil rights of the people is imperative because the lack of administration, lack of enforcement of these rights, civil rights and civil liberties and human rights brought Afghanistan to this extreme status of fears.

What can the U.S. do?

The U.S. should address the basic causes of terrorism and support Afghans who are willing to destroy the terrorist networks that have turned Afghanistan into a launching pad for the extremist movements.

It is important for the U.S. and the coalition partners to define their objectives clearly, and to select the means compatible to their objectives.

The U.S. must begin to coordinate its military, political and humanitarian strategies, especially as an alternative administration to the Taliban takes shape. It will be important that that entity have popular support within Afghanistan.

Page 126

To the extent Afghans associate that entity with bombing of urban areas and the disruption of vital humanitarian relief operations, it will not win popular support and sympathy.

The U.S. and the coalition forces must encourage the UN to play an active role in the post-Taliban administration by assisting them with the training and attracting the most qualified Afghan compatriots to participate in the reconstruction of the state.

Critical to the success of this effort would be to design a mechanism for accountability and transparency of management and resources to be provided for the reconstruction of Afghanistan. Pakistan and the neighboring states should be persuaded to accept and support the creation of a broad-based Afghan government.

The role of the UN should be enhanced to help to establish a transitional government composed of the cross-section of Afghans that includethat ought to include all minorities and entities in Afghanistan, including women and religious minorities.

The details of this is included in my full paper that will be left for the record.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Yes, it will be placed in the record.

Mr. AMIRYAR. Thank you.

Page 127

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. And if you could summarize, Doctor.

Mr. AMIRYAR. Thank you.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Amiryar follows:]

PREPARED STATEMENT OF A. QUADIR AMIRYAR, PH.D., EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, CENTRAL ASIA RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT CENTER, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY

GRAVE VIOLATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS

The latest report of the UN Secretary General H.E. Mr. Annan to the General Assembly and Security Council on Afghanistan that was issued on August 17, 2001 clearly refers to a number of gross violations of human rights by the warring factions in general and by the Italian's militia in particular.

''In the sphere of HR there has been no improvement in the policies, practices and circumstances that undermine the ability of Afghans to enjoy their most fundamental rights. As noted in previous reports, combination of war, weak and unrepresentative government mechanism and widespread and deep-rooted poverty coupled with the drought and profound underdevelopment is a deadly mixture for a growing number of Afghans''

Another aspect of the tragedy in Afghanistan is the existence of a widespread and officially sanctioned discrimination against women, girls, Shiia and Hazars in the areas that are controlled by the Taliban,

Page 128

In spite of several well documented reports by the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights and the existence of an established pattern of repeated and massive violations of human rights and humanitarian laws it was only the terrorists attack on New York, Washington and Pennsylvania that brought Afghanistan into the headlines.

Dr. Kamal Hussain, Special Raportuer and the author of several reports on human rights in Afghanistan had called upon the international community to establish an independent international inquiry into the massacres and other grave human rights violations committed by parties to the armed conflict in Afghanistan. Concerning the violations the reports were very specific such as summary execution of civilians by Taliban forces in the Yakawlang district of the province of Bamyan in January 2001. More information became available about massacres from reports published by a number of organizations, for example the UN Secretary General, H.E. Mr. Annan's report of 17 August 2001 to the Security Council and the most detailed of these reports being one dated 19 February 2001 by Human Rights Watch.

In addition

INTL. CRIMINAL LAWS: CRIMES OF GENOCIDE

All parties in the Afghan Civil War are guilty of grave breaches of international humanitarian law. The arms, cash and supplies provided by the neighboring states and other outsiders have been directly contributed to serious violations of international criminal and humanitarian laws such as aerial bombardments of civilian population, indiscriminate bombings, rocketing and other military attacks on civilian populated areas, massacres, killing of civilians, summary executions of prisoners and crime of torture. Several cases of crimes of genocide are recorded by the UN High Commissioner of Human Rights, in Mazar, Bamian, Yakawlang, Samangan, Rubatak and Pul-I-Khumri.

Page 129

War Crimes:

In his latest report the Commissioner called on the UN members and the International Community to take the initiative to expose make the accountable and responsible for war crimes, breaches of international humanitarian law and gross violations of human rights.

Torture:

Afghans civilians struggling running for their life in search of a shelter for survival caught in the middle of a war, closed gates of the neighboring states, the aerial bombardments of Allied Forces in search of Bin Laden, added to their pain suffering and a sense of fear and misery, a feeling of being abandoned physically and mentally exhausted and tortured.

The new flows of refugees into Pakistan, Iran and Central Asia require additional resources to be mobilized so that those fleeing for security, hunger and the war and Arial bombardments are not treated inhumanly as has been experience of many of the refugees in the past.

Terrorism:

For many years terrorism and training camps to promote acts of terror have been organized and funded by their foreign supporters. For example Several months before the latest terrorist acts in New York, Washington, and Pennsylvania, on May 29, 2001 a Federal Court in New York found four men, guilty of conspiracy in the bombing of the U.S> Embassies in Nairobi and Dar as Salam in August 1998. The Court found that three of the perpetrators had received training in camps run by al-Qaeda network in Afghanistan. Other suspects linked to al-Qaeda who were allegedly linked to al-Qaeda have been arrested are in France, Germany, Italy, Spain the UK and the U.S.

Page 130

Religious Intolerance:

The Human Rights Committee, in Geneva, on September 25, 2001 announced ''it has extremely grave concerns about the implementation of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights in Afghanistan, especially as related to the situation of women, public and summery executions, and religious intolerance''. (UNHCHR R. 25 sep 2001)

In the absence of a government or international managerial structures on the ground following the completion of the mission by the Allied Forces human rights violators may feel emboldened to commit further crimes against the civilian population with impunity.

Therefore it is very important to have a representative government in Afghanistan that would be recognized by the neighboring states is essential.

Post-Taliban Administration:

Reasons for prolongation of war and grave violations of human rights in Afghanistan were various. Lacking of a legitimate government capable of enforcing civil rights and protecting the basic liberties of its citizens. . Failure of the UN to implement the Geneva Accord, following the defeat and withdrawal of the former Soviet Union and the renewal of additional foreign interference. Imposing of various unrepresentative governments over Afghans by outsiders. Absence of trust between the rulers and the ruled, and destruction of the national, social, political and cultural institutions

Page 131

The role of international community and the UN in the transitional era of the process is critical because the main causes of the war in Afghanistan are external. It is the UN and the Security Councils obligation to protect the people of Afghanistan from external interference and from the destructive armed conflict, which continues to be externally supported. *(HCHR Feb. 2001).

All segments of the Afghan population are united on the imperative need for change of the prevailing situation. In order to introduce change a comprehensive strategy is needed in which carefully orchestrated and coordinated moves are made both at the internal and external level.

The need is clear for initiating and sustaining a process in which all segments of the Afghan population inside and outside Afghanistan should be able to revive their traditional sociopolitical institutions and to establish a representative, pluralistic, participatory form of government and constitution, The philosophy of the future administration must be based on the rule of law and equality of citizens in front of the law.

The international community, in particular acting through the Security Council, is expected to discharge its fundamental obligation to protect the people and territory of Afghanistan from external interference and from the destructive armed conflict, which continues to be externally supported. The new flows of refugees into Pakistan and Iran call for additional resources to be mobilized so that those fleeing from threats to their life and security from drought, hunger and conflict are not treated inhumanely as has been experience of many of the refugees.

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Road Maps:

Post-Taliban Administration can be formed into two separate stages, first the transitional structure or entity and second the regular and permanent structure that shall be based on the basic principles of democracy, separation of powers, independent judiciary, an elected House of representatives and an elected Senate. The responsibility for the management of

State and public policy should be shared between the executive and legislative organs of the state. .

The term of the transitional entity shall be limited to three years with no renewal.

The composition of the transitional administration should represent the socio-political fabric of the Afghan society. Every effort should be made that this entity will be inclusive, proportional and pluralistic. In other words members of every ethnic, social, religious, and languages are included.

After 23 years of occupation, loss of fundamental freedoms, foreign interference and civil war the people of Afghanistan deserve to insist on retaining a large measure of autonomy over their lives. Because this is essential for a constitutional system dedicated to the rule of law.

The system of the future government shall be based on the rule of law and must be defined by a constitution. Sovereignty belongs to the people. People delegate a portion of their rights to the state, only for the enforcement and implementation of their civil rights and liberties. A significant portion of the constitution must be dedicated to specify citizen's civil rights and human rights.

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In the Post-Taliban Administration the former King H.M. M. Zahir Shah would be able to lead and facilitate the transitional administration. He enjoys a good deal of respect and serves as a reminder of the democratic era in Afghanistan. Also, he expressed his desire to serve the people of Afghanistan in that capacity.

What the U.S. Can Do?

The US should address the basic causes of terrorism and support Afghans who are willing to destroy the terrorist's networks that have turned Afghanistan into a launching pad for the extremist movements.

The US should coordinate its activities in Afghanistan and the formation of the transitional Administration, including activities related to the reconstruction with UN and its specialized agencies and the Coalition of the Alliance.

The US must begin to coordinate its military, political and humanitarian strategies. Prioritizing of military strategy and military objectives may contribute to a negative image for political and humanitarian strategies. Specially, as an alternative Administration to the Taliban regime takes shape, it will be important that that entity have popular support within Afghanistan. To the extent, Afghans associate that entity with bombing of urban areas and the disruption of vital humanitarian relief operation; it will not win popular sympathy.

Assist Afghanistan with the reconstruction of state, restoration of a legitimate government, accountable to it citizens and meet the minimum requirements for recognition by Afghanistan's neighbors and international community.

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To advance the formation of a popular alternative to Taliban rule, to end the suffering of innocent Afghans living in the vicinity of US military targeting and to expedite humanitarian relief, the U.S should divert its attacks away from urban areas and transport facilities needed to move humanitarian supplies. It should also avoid targeting electric generating facilities, which are vital to water pumping in drought stricken areas or other installations essential to the provision and utilization of water.

The US should allocate funds and empower the UN to search for a Talent-search within the Afghan Diaspora to identify critically needed technical, administrative, and other skills to be located to the new Administration. Funds should be made available to support Diaspora Afghans on extended sabbaticals in services of the reconstruction of Afghanistan.

Conclusion:

Given the status of civil war, power of the war-lords, absence of a centralized legitimate government I can not see any improvement in the implementation or enforcement of human rights.

The most imperative task for Afghans in collaboration with the international community is the configuration of a legitimate government, political independence, territorial integrity and the institution of a constitution that should emphasize promotion of the rule of lam and equality of all citizens before the law.

The US working through the UN should provide funds to the transitional Afghan Administration to be used in building a cadre of commanders who would be paid to ensure security in their areas and pledge loyalty to the new Administration.

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US and the coalition of Alliance must encourage the UN to play an active role in the post-Taliban administration of Afghanistan, by assisting them with the training, and attracting the most qualifies Afghan compatriots to participate in the reconstruction of the state.

Irrespective of who is assigned to train the trainers no one can deny the importance and relevance of this issue to the mission of state building for Afghanistan. Therefore the sooner the UN and its specialized agencies such as UNICEF, UNISCO, WHO, WFP, and in collaboration with the Allied Coalitions must resume the planning for it the smoother the transition may be.

Critical to the success of this effort would be to design mechanisms for accountability and transparency of management of resources to be provided for reconstruction. Pakistan and the neighboring states should be persuaded to accept and support the creation of a broad-based Afghan government. The role of the UN should be enhanced to help establish a transitional government composed of a cross-section of Afghans.( Ghani, FT 9/27/01

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you so much.

Mr. Haron Amin. Thank you.

STATEMENT OF HARON AMIN, SPECIAL REPRESENTATIVE/SPOKESPERSON, UNITED FRONT (NORTHERN ALLIANCE)

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Mr. AMIN. Thank you, Madam Chair.

At the outset permit me to thank you for having convened this august gathering here and to address the plight of the Afghan woman in particular, but at large, the issue of Afghanistan.

Indeed, the issue is women's rights, but I think beyond that the issue is human rights, of which in Afghanistan over 55 percent constitute woman.

The plight of the suffering of the people of Afghanistan has gone unheard for years, and the question ought to be are the women better off under us or are the women better off today under the Taliban.

When we controlled Kabul in 1992 through 1996, according to the UN, and I am citing here the United Nations documentations, 75 percent of all teachers were women, 50 percent of all civil servants were women, 40 percent of all medical documents were women, and 50 percent of Kabul University students were women. Women were also in position to hold diplomatic posts, as they were also faculty chairs at the University of Kabul.

According to Mary McMakkon of PARSA, she is an American wentand she was in Afghanistan and helped with women over 25 years, and she has been stationed in Afghanistan since 1992, 80 percent of all teaching positions of Kabul during Rabani's rule, as she says, were women; and that young men and women were attending the university until fighting and rocketing around Kabul did occur.

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But what went wrong in 1992? That is also another question. In 1992, we had Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, who started cutting the electricity into the city, reigned as many as 600 rockets a day into the capitol. With electricity gone, with law and order disappearing during the night, with fighting which he raged in the city, he certainly would have problems.

But the state as a policy, in principle, has never sanctioned, advocated or condoned human rights violations. And certainly there are human rights violations that may have taken place in our territories by villagers or other people. These have been acts of reprisal on a local level. Let me give you an example.

Three years ago Sherifa, this woman, in Kalalihoja, north of Kabul, killed 25 Taliban members. Now, certainly certain human rights organizations would have had a problem with that. But did she do the right thing by killing Taliban? Indeed, that again was in our territory, and in our territory women have the right to bear arms and defend themselves. That is not the case under the Taliban. So it is a question of really what is happening in Afghanistan.

Having said this, I would like to address other issues, and I think the biggest plight right now in light of what is happening in Afghanistan is the issue of these starving people in Afghanistan, 80 percent of whom or 80 percent of 8 million people, mostly scattered throughout northern Afghanistan.

Let us also not forget that almost all of the internally displaced people, persons have been forced into the territory controlled by United Front. People in Yakolang as we speak are starving, and for the last maybe 25 days or so have only been feeding themselves on plain grass.

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We appealed to the United States on behalf of the Afghan people to request Afghanistan's neighbors to open the borders for those that are fleeing currently. We also believe that the donor states recognize the severity of the situation and they should be much more magnanimous than they have been thus far, and also for the international agencies to streamline a common humanitarian strategy.

On the political level, since the international community, the military initiative has not been able to provide a clear cut political road map, we have taken the initiative in our own hands, and luckily blessed by the fact that the former monarch of Afghanistan is still alive in and in Rome, and someone who can make an appeal to all the different Afghan segments in Afghanistan, and the ethnic groups that he is in a position, hopefully, to call up on the Loya Jirga.

But before the Loya Jirga, there needed to be the convening or the establishment of the Council of National Unity. That is going forward. We are happy that that is making progress. Certainly we believe that that is the way to go out, out of the current situation or the conundrum in Afghanistan.

Let me emphasize here that on behalf of the United Front, I am pledging that a future Afghanistan will have no role whatsoever with terrorism; that in the future of Afghanistan, there will be pledge to fight against drug trafficking; that in the future of Afghanistan there will be respect for human rights, including women's human rights.

Let me also pledge for a pro-democratic society in Afghanistan, one which will have political pluralism as one of its tenets.

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And let me conclude by saying that none of these issues, one through four, would be made feasible without the international community's assistance. A neglected Afghanistan has paid a very high price, both for the Afghans as well as the international community. Many nationalities were killed in the incidence of September 11th. We strongly believe that the Afghans deserve a chance for peace.

First, they fought vehemently and strongly against the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, which destroyed the entire infrastructure. Now, against terrorism. The Afghanistan people have a right and the international community has a responsibility toward that. And let us hope that we can go about the reconstruction, rehabilitation and new patriation of Afghanistan all together.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Amin follows:]

PREPARED STATEMENT OF HARON AMIN, SPECIAL REPRESENTATIVE/SPOKESPERSON, UNITED FRONT (NORTHERN ALLIANCE)

On behalf of my Government and the people of Afghanistan, I seek your indulgence at the outset in permitting me to express my appreciation for this hearing.

The Taliban are as despised by the international community as they are despised by the people of Afghanistan. In Afghanistan, the Taliban have engaged in reign of terror, genocide, ethnic cleansing, scorched-earth policy, crimes of war, crimes against humanity, forced deportation of civilians, forcible displacement of hundreds of thousands of internally displaced persons (IDPs), the separation of women from their men-folk.

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The Taliban have implemented misogynistic practices such as gender apartheid and feminization of poverty, contamination of water wells, indiscriminate targeting of civilians based on ethnic, religious and gender origins, forced display of yellow lapels for Hindu nationals, random executions, political and other extra-judicial executions that include targeted and mass killings, cruel, inhuman and degrading punishment.

The Taliban have impeded access to humanitarian aid, non-cooperation with international aid agencies and open defiance of related international instruments, roundup of foreign or domestic aid workers, cultural genocide such as the destruction of the colossal 5th Century A.D. Buddha statues in Bamyan as well as the complete destruction of Afghanistan's national heritage in the Kabul Museum.

Finally, the Taliban have institutionalized the world's most rigid interpretation of 'Islam' . . . one which no educated Muslim would recognize as the merciful Islam of our Holy Prophet Mohammad (peace and blessing be upon him).

No Afghan entity and certainly no Muslim to dateregardless of originhas ever so systematically engaged in these practices, as has the Taliban militia. A scrutiny of their behavior clearly manifests their close adherence to the Deobandi and Wahabi interpretations of Islamic teachings. The former is widely practiced in Pakistan, the latter in Saudi Arabia. In fact, the people of Afghanistan, never followers of either of the aforementioned Islamic interpretations, have been held as slaves of the Taliban's primitive world view and, believe me, will welcome their liberation by International Community when Afghanistan is freed.

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But let me stress to you that America's role in this International force currently embroiled in ousting bin Ladin, is crucial on several fronts. Most Afghans are hesitant to trust the United States right now because they feel betrayed. They feel betrayed because we fought a protracted war on the same side as the United States and when the Soviets withdrew in 1989, we suddenly lost significance, just when we needed you the most. And in that period of time, of massive instability from 1992 through 1996, because of Pakistan's backing for Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, who recently joined the Taliban, Kabul was shelled with as many as 600 rockets a day.

During that period of time in Kabul, Hekmatyar cut the electricity and destroyed the turbines at the Sorubi hydroelectric damn. He totally annihilated several areas in Kabul proper, which came to resemble Downtown Manhattan after September 11. Instability during this period of time caused the disintegration of law and order, allowing incidents of looting, rape and bloodshed. Let me stress at this point that this was never state sanctioned and came about in the vacuum created when the United States and the rest of our allies ignored what Pakistan saw as an opportunity to extend its hegemonistic intentions in the region. It was during this time that the Taliban marched into Kabul with weapons supplied by the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), Pakistan's military intelligence services, which as you know by now is a state within the Pakistani State, with the full blessing of Ossama bin Laden. This should not be allowed to happen again.

It must be stressed with emphasis that there are two realities about Afghanistan: the international vs. the Pakistani reality. Leading experts on Afghanistan will ascertain that Pakistan is the prime reason for the instability in Afghanistan.

Among them, the noted Pakistani journalist and scholar on Afghanistan, Ahmad Rashid, who in March of this year stated:

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''In fact since Kabul fell to the Mujahideen [resistance fighters] in 1992 our policies have created a wave of criticism and even hatred for Pakistan amongst many Afghans. The majority of Afghans blame us for being the single biggest contributor to the continuing war in their homeland. Today we stand isolated in the community of nations due to our Afghan policy . . . In my personal and humble capacity I would like to apologize to the brave Afghan people for the consequences of Pakistan's recent policies in Afghanistan. I would like to unconditionally apologize for deaths of countless Afghans, which have been caused by Pakistani interference. I would like to apologize for the part that we have played in the destruction of your cities, your culture, your traditions and your freedom to choose your own government.''

In order to stop this from happening again and to install a government that truly represents the people of Afghanistan, which will halt the export of terrorism such as the attack on New York and Washington on September 11, the United States must commit itself to the long-term process of bringing peace, rebuilding Afghanistan's infrastructure, the institution of long-term de-mining programs, political support for a truly democratic process and logistical and material support. You cannot assume that, when Afghanistan is finally freed of the terrorists we both wish to defeat, your role will be finished short of the institution of a pro-Democratic government. Your long-term friendship will be just as important as our current, immediate goal.

Our national hero, Ahmad Shah Massoud, the legend of anti-Soviet Afghan resistance as early as 1990, instructed me to conveyupon having volunteered and fought two years of Jihad under his commandthat three things will happen if Afghanistan were abandoned by the United States: drugs, terrorism and human rights violations in Afghanistan. On December 14, 2000, Massoud wrote to Vice President Richard Cheney:

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''We believe the international community's ineffective response to Pakistan's hegemonic adventurism through the ISI-led coalition of Pakistani religious organizations, the Taliban and extremist cliques and figures such as the renowned Ossama bin Laden, set a horrible example for petty despots and terrorists around the world.''

Sadly, Commander Massoud was assassinated by two Al-Qaeda suicide-bombers posing as journalists just two days before the terrorist acts of September 11. The two incidents were not coincidental.

As we see, all these have come to pass. And today we are here in this hearing to specifically discuss the abolition of human rights, which Commander Massoud predicted. But rather than look back, let's look forward and work together to finally put a halt to the systemic matricide, gender apartheid, rampant racism and persecution of Hindus, Sikhs, Jews and Christians and total degradation of any form of human rights that have become the hallmark of Taliban rule.

To bring about a government that would rebuild Afghanistan, respect human rights and truly represent our countrymen and women, we need your political help in bringing about a traditional Loya Jirga, or grand council, which is a tradition in our country since the 18th Century. It is widely honored and accepted by all Afghans and the best means of selecting a new government in Afghanistan.

On October 1, 2001, a delegation of the United Front visited Rome to meet with former King Zahir Shah, and concluded an Agreement. The main points of the agreement are:

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''The formation of a new structure entitled The Supreme Council for National Unity of Afghanistan;

''In light of current national and international realities, this Council will convene an emergency Loya Jirga which will elect a head of state and a transitional government; and

''In the case of a dire situation, whereby an emergency Loya Jirga cannot be convened as agreed, this Council will have the authority to take appropriate measures to execute the points stated under article (2) above.''

It is important to note that nominations to the Council of National Unity have been made in light of ethnic parameters, not political or military realities, in an aim to truly bring national unity.

A broad-based government will develop if this Loya Jirga under the auspices of our former King, Zahir Shahas a unifying figurehead and not as a monarchis allowed to convene. In order to convene the Loya Jirga, several things must take place. First and foremost, the Loya Jirga must be convened without any outside interference. Second, it shall aim to achieve the widest possible representation from across Afghanistan in a fair and just manner, including Afghan refugees and elements from among the Afghan Diaspora and others who have been previously alienated.

All of Afghanistan's major ethnic groups i.e. Pashtun, Tajik, Hazara and Uzbek must be justly represented in all future political institutions and government bodies. This, however, is not to be construed as either preclusion and/or exclusion of other smaller groups such as Turkman, Baluch, Nooristani, and others from their administrative share. Finally, the Loya Jirga must be convened under present conditions and inside Afghanistan. Hence, America must involve itself in Afghanistan's political evolution by throwing its full weight behind the Council of National Unity and, later, the Loya Jirga.

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The United States should also try to encourage the participation of the United Nations in a key role in the Council of National Unity to assist the convening of the Loya Jirga. In this context, inclusion of so-called moderate Taliban in the Loya Jirga would be like the imposition of so-called moderate Nazis in the post-Hitler German state. Abdul Haq, the legendary anti-Soviet Commander, who was recently murdered by the Taliban inside Afghanistan, was in the process of working for the Loya Jirga.

We wish for the people of Afghanistan to have the right of self-determination and the right to local elective administrations; observation of the rights of the Shi'a community; the observation of the rights of all ethnic and religious minorities; the respect and observation of the rights of women, including their rights to education and to work as well as their right to elect themselves to office.

We Afghans seek your support for this process and request appropriate dispensation of political support and material and financial assistance with the goal of convening the Loya Jirga at the earliest plausible time.

Permit me in this context to refer back to Massoud's letter to Vice President Cheney:

''The United States has a moral responsibility towards Afghanistan which shall address key issues, i.e. democracy, political pluralism, human rightsespecially including women's and girls' human rightsand advocacy of moderation and tolerance in Afghanistan . . . Meanwhile, stationed at the forefront of the resistance against religious extremism, our goals remain clear. Afghansbeing multi-ethnicwant to gain their right to self-determination through a democratic mechanism acceptable to our nation. No one group, party or individual has the right to dictate its will by force or proxy on others. But first, the obstacles have to be overcome, the war has to end, a just peace established and a transitional administration set up to move us toward a broad-based representative government.''

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Massoud had facilitated the ''The Declaration of Principles'' by the United Front adopted on 20 September 1997 by the Government of the Islamic State of Afghanistan and recorded as official document of the United Nations (A/52/384S/1997/733 on 23 September 1997), which are as follows:

1. The principle of Islam;

2. The principles of independence and international cooperation;

3. The principles of democracy and political pluralism;

4. The principles of election and delegation of authority to local administrations; and

5. The principle of human rights, including the rights of women and the right of self-determination.

And let me elaborate on the role of women in a future government, because this is paramount to the establishment of a future government that will, indeed, respect human rights. Commander Massoud last year met with a group of French women's rights advocates, who presented him with a petition for his signature guaranteeing rights for women in a future Afghan government. When Commander Massoud read the petition, which called for the right of Afghan women to work, receive an education, function in society as full partners and vote, he called attention to one missing factorthe right to run for public office. That philosophy we still retain.

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Afghan women have historically received educations abroad, driven cars, dressed in modern fashions and were leaders in our society such as ministers in the government and members of the parliament. We strongly believe that without the active participation of women, the task of reconstruction, rehabilitation and repatriation of Afghanistan cannot be achieved. To cite one example, the UN reported when the Islamic State of Afghanistan controlled Kabul, more than 50 percent of all civil servants, doctors and nurses, and students were all women. When I was working with Massoud in Kabul in 19956, we made certain that women played a significant role in the composition of the civic society. Even today, women enjoy employment and education rights in our territories working side by side with their male counterparts. The Taliban have thrust on our society a Deobandi/Wahabi influenced gender apartheid, which is alien to our culture. It has never been an intrinsically Afghan concept. We categorically reject it for a future Afghanistan.

The United Front has never, as a matter of principle, sanctioned, advocated or condoned human rights violations. Any human rights violations that have taken place in United Front territories have been personal reprisals on a local level. The United Nations Charter and all major world legal systems recognize the inherent right of self-defense against armed attack. The Islamic State of Afghanistan, which is the political extension of the United Front, as a globally recognized Government personifying an independent and sovereign State, has been in a state of self-defense against Pakistani proxies, first Hekmatyar and, later, the Taliban and their international terrorist allies like bin Ladin.

As the Government of the Islamic State of Afghanistan, we have the right to defend out sovereignty and independence against all ongoing cross-border aggression and take appropriate measures in full conformity with the UN Charter and international law of the past and the present century. There needs to be a distinction between righteously fighting for independence, resisting aggression and upholding noble human principles vs. those of obscurantist and extremist forces engaged in a war of aggression and reign of terror. On the contrary, widespread and systematic violations of human rights, including rights of women and girls, perpetrated in the occupied parts of Afghanistan under the military control of the Taliban and their foreign guests, are a daily practice.

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The United Front has never institutionalized taxation on drugs or engaged in drug cultivation or trafficking. The Taliban, despite having issued a decree banning poppy cultivation, continue to champion drug cultivation, processing and trafficking. Of course, after a three-year draught, banning poppy cultivation is not a difficult measure. And, having surpassed the Golden Triangle in poppy cultivation, the Taliban produced 4,700 tons of illicit drugs in 1999. Purely a calculation of supply vs. demand, the Taliban banned poppy cultivation as un-Islamic, thus driving up international prices. Conveniently, in previous years it was ''Islamic'' according to the militias. Current stockpiles of Taliban narcotics constitute seven year's annual global consumption of heroin. By the way, these stockpiles exist in warehouses and have not yet been targeted by American bombers.

This hearing is just not any hearing. In many ways the seeds of hope for millions of Afghans will be planted here in this hall. It is dire time to compensate for past negligence, fulfill the responsibility that America abrogated and, finally give the Afghan people the kind of institutions with which you are blessed: democracy and human rights. In our mind, a neglected Afghanistan has paid a high price both for you as well as for us. There are two paths to be taken: one of repeating September 11 and the other to prevent a recurrence of September 11. Our people pray for the latter so that our nations will not be victimized again. A first step is the total removal of the Taliban.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you very much.

Mr. Amin, I will start with you. Is there anything in the Holy Koran which would preclude a continuation of the fighting against the Taliban during Ramadan? What would be the impact of halting the military strikes at this time? And would continuing the strikes have negative political consequences for the U.S.? That is, will it antagonize Afghan people, and Muslim members of the coalition of Arab-American community as well?

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And conversely, would halting the strikes provide the Taliban with time to consolidate, to expand its forces? How would such a halt be perceived by the Afghan people from all angles?

Mr. AMIN. Madam Chair, the issue is that the Taliban have used the holy month of Ramadan in the past to persecute the Afghan nation, to institutionalize daily reign of terror on the Afghan nation.

To just cite an example, it was during Ramadan of 1998 that the Taliban forcibly displaced as many as 150,000 people from their home. So certainly the sanctity of the holy month of Ramadan is an issue not applicable to the whole Taliban Draconian world view.

The question is in the Islamic teachings there is no clear cut disposition which prevents Muslims from waging a war or declaring war or continuing the state of war at anytime. You can check this with any Muslim scholar. There is nothing specifically that says for that not to occur.

But we strongly believe that the Talibanthat the holy month of Ramadan is a month during which you can indeed fast and not drink any fluids or not eat any food, any kind of sustenance. But the holy month of Ramadan is a month during which you do not stop fighting terrorism, and that is something that we will do in Afghanistan because we strongly believe that the international coalition ought to keep that coalition together, and the reason is that, despite the fact that certain quarters in Pakistan might still want to somehow convince the international community's resolve that maybe this is the time to stop, that that is a venue to create a hurdle and to thwart the international community's resolve at effectively combating terrorism.

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Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you.

Mr. AMIN. And hence, we hope that the international community will not stop during this month. Islamically, there is nothing that specifically states that, and that would only give the opportunity, should the international community stop, the opportunity for Taliban to mobilize, to gather strength in any way that they can, and to openly persecute the Afghan nation. What is certain is that we will definitely continue our combat against the Taliban.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you.

And how long will the Northern Alliance agree to postpone an assault on Kabul to allow a broad-based government to be created and established?

Mr. AMIN. Madam Chair, in that context, no quarter, no political quarter has ever indicated to us that the taking of Kabul should not be in our agenda. That is an issue that we have raised ourselves.

It is our understanding that in order to be effectivelyin order to effectively approach a political settlement, that a political road map needs to be in place, and we have taken that initiative on our own hands. We have contacted various quarters around the world, and certainly the King has given his blessing, and there are a lot of other venues, the Cyprus venue, the people, the gathering in Bonn and others who are also in contact, that they want a political road map to be in place, and that is the reason that we have halted whatsoever an attempt to re-liberate Kabul.

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But in this context, let me also emphasize that should the United States be in a position to convince the United Nations to also fully back this plan, that that would be most needed, at the same time for Kabul to be demilitarized, it requires hopefully the deployment of some sort of international force.

Now, whether that could be done under the UN peacekeeping or peacemaking, that is something that could be subject to debate at the United Nations level, and it something that Mr. Abraheme might be in a variable position to do so. But certainly we make the appeal that if such situation and such deployment could be made feasible, we would welcome that, but certainly it is not in our intent to go ahead and to capture Kabul.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you. And finally, how would you respond to Ms. Faryal's statements about the Northern Alliance being reviled by the Afghan people and the U.S. support for the Alliances plunged the Afghan people into horrific anxiety and fear of re-experiencing the dreadful years of the 1990s?

Mr. AMIN. Well, certainly I would have wished for her to have been in this room. Certainly I am not a member of the Taliban, and I have not discussed against women whatsoever.

But regardless, I can say that the attempt that the United States havethe initiative that the United States has right now is aimed at targeting terrorism, at disseminating and annihilate terrorism whatsoever. The Afghan nation has been victimized as has the American nation and so many other nationalities around the world who happened to be working at the time in New York. So that is the aim with which the United States and the international community is trying to pursue the course of events in Afghanistan.

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If anything, it has been the Islam state of Afghanistan or the United Front that has been neglected over the years. We have made numerous appeals, as early as 1992, in fact, Commander Ahmad Shah Massoud appealed to the United States and said that if you do not pay attention to Afghanistan, that it willit will have major ramifications, of which he named three: terrorism, drug trafficking and human rights violations. Indeed, that is the case in Afghanistan today. That was as early as 1992.

Over the years, we made numerous appeals. If anything, our appeals did not goyou know, went unheard. And what we are appealing right now is that the future of Afghanistan is something that we can plan right now. Certainly I think that the U.S. on behalf of the international community can play a very productive role in this context, but we have our oaths and we have had our appealswe have had our objectives for years in place. We have asked for certain things.

What are we asking for in Afghanistan? We are asking that the international community help us on the human rights issues; that they help us in the issue of fighting drugs; that they help us in the issue of terrorism; that they help us on the rehabilitation and reconstruction of Afghanistan.

And let me just, in the context of your question, say that we are the oneswe are, among others, who want to go about this path, and certainly Kabul under our control was much better off than under the Taliban. And had we been given the assistance the world wants to give to Afghanistan right now back then, certainly the situationthe incidence of September 11 would have never occurred in Afghan.

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Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you. I have gone two and a half minutes over my time limit, so I will extend the same courtesy to Cynthia, and then we will ask another round of questions.

Congresswoman McKinney.

Ms. MCKINNEY. Great. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Well, I guess my first question ought to be to my witness, who is at a different location, and I would like to ask her to respond to what Mr. Amin has said, if she has anything to say with respect to what he said about the period from 1992 to 1996, and also about the apparent commitment that has been made to safeguard thenot only the rights of women, but participation of women in a future government should the Northern Alliance participate in a future government of Afghanistan.

Ms. FARYAL. Thank you, Congresswoman, Ms. McKinney.

I must say that Mr. Haron very simply shied away from the period between '92 to '96, as if nothing happened in Afghanistan during that time. But I think that everyone would remember, everyone concerned about the human rights and women's rights violation, would remember what happened in Afghanistan at that time.

It was during the internal fighting between those different groups, that some of them now are in the Northern Alliance, but some are not in the Northern Alliance, that 70 to 80 percent of the capitol city Kabul became totally destroyed; that the hospital, the school was destroyed and looted. In fact, nothing was left for Taliban to destroy when they took the power except the statutes; that they did that.

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And also, just by saying that women werethey are in some positions in Afghanistan, they weremost of the university students were women or 60 percent of the teachers were women, or there were female doctors does not mean that there were not human rights or women's rights violation.

First of all, because of all those violation most of the women preferred not to attend university anymore, not to go to their jobs anymore, and there have been many reports, hundreds of reports not only by our organization but also by Amnesty International, by Human Rights Watch, as I cited some of them before. It is true that unlike Taliban, they did not have any official list of restrictions on women, but they should also remember that the first things that they did was to remove women from appearing on TV.

And as I said, because there were cases of abduction, cases of rape, cases of forced marriages by the commanders of the different groups, women did not feel safe to go to universities or schools or continue with their jobs anymore.

Also, I think a few days ago it was said by United Nations that Northern Alliance itself was involved in drug cultivation in Afghanistan. Last year they cultivated 120 to 150 tons of opium in Afghanistan.

So if they want to be involved in any future government in Afghanistan, first, they should be brought on an international court of law because people of Afghanistan do not wantwould never forget for the crimes that they committed in Afghanistan against humanity and especially against women.

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Ms. MCKINNEY. Thank you. Okay, I will try and make these additional questions brief.

Mr. Amin, could you tell me then, in light of what we have just heard, what kind of steps you have taken or will take in order to ensure that women will be included in a future government of Afghanistan?

Mr. AMIN. Thank you, Ms. McKinney.

I would like to read to you a declaration of principles which the United Front adopted in 1997, and among the five steps or five principles in that list, one is the principle of human rights, including the rights of women and the right of self-determination.

Certainly, the objective, the aim is to end the menace and the problems in Afghanistan.

Ms. MCKINNEY. Does self-determination mean participation in the political life and decision-making of the country?

Mr. AMIN. Yes, indeed. Let me also cite to you that when a group of Western women from France went to see Commander Massoud prior to his assassination, that they had a list of about 10 or 11 items that they wanted to have for women, that women should be privileged with about 10 or something of rights, among them one was missing, which was for the women to have the right to elect themselves to office, which Commander Massoud himself brought up, and then signed the declaration or the document on behalf of the United Front.

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We want women in the future of Afghanistan to have the same kind of rights that women had under the 1964 constitutional monarchy. And back then under the 1964 constitutional monarchy, women had the right to become members in the cabinet as well as become members in the parliament of Afghanistan.

Ms. MCKINNEY. And so you make a commitment today that women will serve in the cabinet in any government of Afghanistan of which the Northern Alliance is a part?

Mr. AMIN. Certainly, I am making thatI am making that pledge right now, and it is a matter of the international community keeping us, staying with us shoulder to shoulder so that we can go about achieving these things. These have been our objectives.

But Madam, if I may also refer that in light of again the arestriction of Kabul, that if 80 percent of Kabul was destroyed, it was destroyed because Mr. Gulbuddin Hekmatyar stationed 10 kilometers south of the city reigned as many as 600 rockets a day. This has been very well documented. Despite the fact that all the destruction did indeed occur and Kabul itself isit looks like in many ways like downtown Manhattan. It occurred not because we wanted to engage in fighting, but because rockets were reigning on the city of Kabul, and indeed we were trying to defend the people of Kabul.

Now, if those

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Ms. MCKINNEY. Okay.

Mr. AMIN. Now, if those rockets

Ms. MCKINNEY. Okay.

Mr. AMIN. I'm sorry.

Ms. MCKINNEY. Let me, because my time is limited, let me just get to this other issue of drug trafficking.

A New York Times article dated October 2nd says that United Nations officials say,

''For most of the past 5 years, the narcotics have come from areas entirely controlled by the Northern Alliance.''

I know from news reports that the taking of Masar-e Sharif is imminent, the taking of Mazar by the Northern Alliance is supposed to be imminent.

Now, it is my understanding from United Nations that there is a substantial amount of heroin or the product in whichfrom which heroin is made stockpiled in Mazar-e Sharif.

Could you tell me what precautions the Northern Alliance is taking right now to make sure that narcotics trafficking ceases because those narcotics end up in Europe and on American streets? And should Masar-e Sharif be taken by the Northern Alliance? What is going to happen to that product ofthat narcotics that is there in stockpile?

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Mr. AMIN. Thank you, Ms. McKinney. I would urge you and your colleagues, along with you, and hopefully you can make this a bill in Congress, to hopefully have the American airlines going over Afghanistan to also use some of the cluster bombs to pound these drug stockpiles in the city of Mazar-e Sharif. That might be an easier way of getting rid of them before we go into the city.,

But certainly our campaign is one of capturing Mazar-e Sharif.

Ms. MCKINNEY. So you are suggesting that the bombs

Mr. AMIN. If I may finish. If I may finish, please.

Ms. MCKINNEY. Bomb the stockpiles?

Mr. AMIN. I am saying that the best way to get rid of them and it is something that I even earlier made during my press conference, press appearances for the last 1 month or so, that one of the things that has not been targeted enough on has been these stockpiles, and numerous quarters run by the Taliban.

We have to remember that under the Taliban Afghanistan produced as many as 4,700 metric tons of opium and heroin. That isthat is scattered throughout the country. We would welcome ally forces to go about targeting these stockpiles of narcotics.

Ms. MCKINNEY. We know the Taliban are the bad guys. You do not have to convince us of that.

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Mr. AMIN. Certainly.

Ms. MCKINNEY. However, we want to make sure you are good guys. And the New York Times article specifically refers to areas that are in your control and drug trafficking that is done under your watch.

So is there going to be an end to that right now? And would you invite the Americans to also bomb your stockpiles?

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Over 5 minutes of time that

Mr. AMIN. We are working on that appeal and we will work on this very issue. We hope that

Ms. MCKINNEY. Great. Thank you.

Mr. AMIN [continuing]. You will not let us down on this issue.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you so much.

If I could ask any of the panelists who would like to respond, many would argue that most people in Kabul are too terrified to fight the Taliban.

Do you believe that the Afghan people will rise against the Taliban in more numbers to join the opposition forces? Doctor?

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Mr. AMIRYAR. Thank you. That is possible, but it depends on techniques and mechanisms that we will be using or allied forces will be using.

Actually, the people of Afghanistan are very tired of the Taliban and their predecessor. They want to see that they are liberated, and they achieve their rights, their natural rights, their human rights, their civil rights, and their basic rights, and particularly the first generation of human rights. We are not concerned now about second or third generation. And so the people are tired.

But what can be done to accomplish this? Maybe at Kabul, because the war that we are dealing now, it is a differentby nature, it is different. It is a combination of terror and politics, and that is what makes it incumbent upon us to voice and find methods and mechanism to suit our objectives.

Our objectives ought to be defined a little bit more precisely, and then the current objective, the interim objective and the future objective, these all would be linked in the future, and at the end of this, the end result will be the formation of that government, interim government or transitional government that we would base on the ideals of democracy.

And that government needs some support of goodwill of the people. So the bombardment may be one mechanism, but not all. We may need to come up with ceratin alternatives to cluster bombs because that may not attract the people to congregate around the future government. That diminishes the support from King Zahir Shah, and the democratic forces of Afghanistan.

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And therefore people of Afghanistan are, in general, they are in support of our policy, and are extremely against terrorism. They want to fight terrorism, but they would like to see that we are fighting on two front in parallel, political as well as humanitarian.

Now, our humanitarian, as Congresswoman referred to, there is indistinguishable items: food between the cluster bombs, that is something that it may hurt our effort while we do not mean to do that one. We mean well, and we are there sincerely. We are there. But I think that we may need to redefine our objectives and use the tools to meet and suit our objectives, and our war needs to be fought on two fronts: politicalthree actually: military, political and humanitarian. All of them has to go parallel.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you.

Mr. Amin. I had asked that the

Mr. AMIN. I'm sorry.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN [continuing]. Afghan people wouldare terrified to fight the Taliban or do you think that they will rise again

Mr. AMIN. I got it, yes.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN [continuing]. To join the opposition forces.

Mr. AMIN. I think that the Afghan nation, as my statement says, that the international community as despite or the Afghan nation as despite by the Taliban, and Osama bin Laden, as they are, as is the international community, the Afghan nation indeed has suffered over the years tremendously, and right now hope has been created and hope has been created because there is these international communities that does care.

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Certainly if given the adequate kind of strategy in Afghanistan, and given that the international community is going to have the resolve, and that that resolve is going to be steadfast, that the Afghan people are going to be hopeful that something at the endthat there is light at the end of the tunnel indeed. And I would say that they would engage in some sort of uprising in Afghanistan, but it is just that recipe, that the ingredients and the prerequisites have to be there.

I would presume that should the Taliban be pushed back in certain quarters in northern Afghanistan, that that is going to certainly signal major defections and number ranks of the Taliban who are going to choose to defect because they know that they are fighting an evil flight.

So Afghan people are not in a position that they are going to shy away or that they are going to turn away from actively resisting the Taliban. That is indeed the case. But I think the appropriate injection of the prerequisites has got to be there also, and I think, given that the international coalition is going to provide such prerequisites, that I think it will happen.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. And Ms. Faryal, if I could ask you this. Representatives of RAWA have classified U.S. military strikes on Afghanistan as ''unbearable for any Afghan,'' and perceived by many Afghans as U.S. aggression against your country. Yet in an article that I alluded to earlier by Julius Strauss appearing in today's London Telegraph, the headline read, ''Afghans cheer as U.S. jets hit Taliban.'' And it goes on to quote, ''Afghans yelling 'it hit, it hit. Thank you America.' ''

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And if you could explain this contradiction. If not military strikes, what would you propose that the U.S. do in response to the terrorist attacks of September 11th? Do you believe the Taliban would fall without any type of military action on the part of the United States and the international coalition? Are you suggesting that the Afghan people would prefer a continuation of the suffering under the Taliban over U.S. military strikes to precipitate the fall of the Taliban?

Ms. FARYAL. Well, we believe that the bombing in Afghanistan would really not do the job to eradicate terrorism and fundamentalism in our country or elsewhere in the world.

The people of Afghanistan are already tired of more than two decades of war and fed up with the fundamentalist, be the Taliban or the Jahadis. And in fact, if on one hand the people are terrified of the bombing and even before the bombing they were mentally tortured of what would happen, and still they are very much terrified about the consequence, and were witness that we have hundreds and thousands of refugees fleeing the country and coming through the illegal ways through the mountains to Pakistan or to other neighboring countries knowing nothing about their future in these countries, but on the other hand, they think that if this could root out the Taliban and fundamentalism and terrorism in Afghanistan, they think that that can be a good side effect.

But as I said, bombing would really not root out the terrorism. It mightit might get rid of Osama bin Laden or a few Taliban or a few terrorist camps in Afghanistan, but still that does not mean that it has done the job.

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We believe that there should be stoppage of financial, military, political, then diplomatic or any other kind of support to the Taliban, as well as to other groups who are involved in war in Afghanistan. That is the only way to eradicate terrorism, and wish a peaceful and prosperous society for our country.

We have to cut the hands of the different countries, not only the Pakistan that has now diplomatic relationship with Taliban, but also Iran, India, Russia, France or any other country in Afghanistan.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you.

Ms. McKinney, you are recognized to wrap up for the remaining 8 minutes.

Ms. MCKINNEY. Okay.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you.

Ms. MCKINNEY. I only have two questions.

Dr. Amiryar has said that all parties in the Afghan civil war are guilty of grave breaches of international humanitarian law. My question is for Mr. Amin.

Given the fact that not only does Dr. Amiryar make this statement, but that our own United States State Department Human Rights Report makes similar statements, would you agree that human rights abusers and war criminals should not participate in a future government of Afghanistan?

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Mr. AMIN. Let me say one thing, and I hope that here we are going on the same wavelength here. There are many organizations that the very act of reprisal that the United States has sought right now in Afghanistan, which apparently leads to loss of life, would be condemnable. So in other words, in the eyes of these organization the very act that the United States has taken right now which leads to the death of terrorists, or that leads to the death of fanatics, or extremists in Afghanistan, which as the case are getting pounded constantly, and whose numbers are being reduced as we speak, that would be condemnable.

So having said that, and I hope that there could be a distinction made for just war and unjust war. I think that the international community is fighting a just war, and this is a war on behalf of humanity, on behalf of civilization, on behalf of coexistence and on behalf of toleration.

Ms. MCKINNEY. Okay, we are not

Mr. AMIN. That is the war that we have fought also

Ms. MCKINNEY [continuing]. Talking about the

Mr. AMIN [continuing]. In Afghanistan.

Ms. MCKINNEY [continuing]. International community. What we are talking about is the future government of Afghanistan.

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Mr. AMIN. Yes, if I

Ms. MCKINNEY. Of which the Northern Alliance would like to be a part.

Mr. AMIN. Yes.

Ms. MCKINNEY. And so my question to you is then, given the fact that there have been these gross abuses of human rights, then would it be the position of the Northern Alliance to say we do not want human rights abusers to be a part of our government?

Mr. AMIN. Certainly the political process is moving in the direction to where an Afghan assembly could be created with the help of the former monarch of Afghanistan. Certainly that gathering has the right to choose whom they want, or whom they do not want. It is not up to me as a person to dictate as to who is going to qualify or who is not going to qualify. Certainly that is not me.

But if that is something, a contingency that the United States on behalf of the international community could place very well in this whole process, we welcome it.

Ms. MCKINNEY. Well, why would you not put that contingency on myself?

Mr. AMIN. On myself?

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Ms. MCKINNEY. Yes, on your own government.

Mr. AMIN. Oh, I am sayingI am saying certainly we are making sure that in this entire process

Ms. MCKINNEY. You as an Afghani

Mr. AMIN. We as

Ms. MCKINNEY [continuing]. Why would you not want to have people who have a clean record and respect to human rights abuses and I

Mr. AMIN. Maybe I was not able to clarify myself or maybe explain myself very well.

Certainly that is the criteria by which we want to function. That is the criteria by which we want to nominate the whole process. Certainly that is the case. But I am going beyond that and I am saying maybe there could be an international contingency plan to verify that these individuals who are going to be selected in this whole process would be the kind of individuals that you would want to see as well.

Ms. MCKINNEY. I think that there are probablyoh, Dr. Amiryar?

Mr. AMIRYAR. May I add a word, please?

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Ms. MCKINNEY. Yes.

Mr. AMIRYAR. Thank you.

Actually, there are two ways to deal with this subject. I am very much concerned about that, and sincerely I mentioned that. However, there are two ways to deal with that one.

One, to wait until the future government of Afghanistan is formed, and they should be dealt with them legally. On the other hand, based on the international law, criteria of international law, some of these violations are reaching the level of international criminal law. Once it reach that level, then we have international jurisdiction. Therefore, there is no need for us to wait until the future government of Afghanistan with that vulnerability would be performed, and then this big burden should be put upon their shoulder.

Perhaps we could initiate that one as the most appropriate democratic rule of law. Since we have jurisdiction on international crimes, and whoever reach them first, they are entitled to prosecution and adjudication, and that would serve as a model for the future of failed states. We could make it then, and this is an area that is moral as a super power. We have a law-abiding nation. We could serve as a model for the future developing countries, with the future of Afghanistan as well as the region because that is not a problem for Afghanistan alone. Pakistan and other neighboring states are suffering from that level as well.

Ms. MCKINNEY. Yes.

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Mr. AMIRYAR. But perhaps this would be an opportunity for us to resort to certain ways, prudent ways that always we have done in our foreign policy.

Ms. MCKINNEY. Dr. Amiryar, I would like to work with you in the future so that we can definitely take a look at the recommendations that you have made because I believe that the one real answer and the one real consistency that ought to exist in U.S. foreign policy is respect of human rights and a promotion for abiding by international law.

Mr. AMIRYAR. Thank you. I shall be looking forward to that opportunity.

Ms. MCKINNEY. Great. Thank you.

Mr. AMIRYAR. Thank you.

Ms. MCKINNEY. And thank you again, Madam Chair.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you, Ms. McKinney.

Ms. MCKINNEY. This has been a wonderful hearing.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you so much. It is always a pleasure working with you. And I thank the panelists for your patience. It is wonderful, I always say, to be interrupted by democracy. It is great to go and vote, and we wish that for every enslaved person in the world. May we always be interrupted by votes.

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Thank you so much for being here with us.

Mr. AMIN. Thank you.

Mr. AMIRYAR. Thank you. It is a privilege.

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you.

[Whereupon, at 6:33 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]

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